Season 2 Episode 37
Inside the Cradle to Career Conference
Dr. Orgul Demet Ozturk is the department chair and professor of economics in the Darla Moore School of Business at the University of South Carolina. Her academic research interests are in applied microeconomics fields, specifically labor economics and health economics. Ozturk has written articles on the effects of labor market regulations and minimum wages on female employment, effectiveness of supported employment programs for developmentally disabled, the relationship between occupation choice and welfare independence, and the effects of maternal employment and welfare use on children’s cognitive outcomes.
Orgul has been a frequent guest on Moore Impact, where she has discussed her research, the research review and publication process and the Economic Policy Innovation Center.
Today’s episode recaps the October 3rd Cradle to Career Conference, hosted by the Moore School’s Economic Policy Innovation Center (EPIC). This academic gathering brought together researchers, industry partners, policymakers, and public officials from across South Carolina to explore data-driven ways to strengthen the state’s human capital; from early education through career readiness.
Topics Include:
To learn more about the Economic Policy Innovation Center, click here.
To learn more about the Cradle to Career Conference, click here
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Kasie Whitener (00:04):
Good morning and welcome into Moore Impact. My name is Kasie Whitener, and I'm your host for our show that brings our practitioners and scholars out of the Darla Moore School of Business over to 2440 Millwood Avenue, 100.7, The Point here locally in Columbia, South Carolina, and also our Moore Impact podcast as well. And what we like to do is, as I said, introduce our scholars and our practitioners to the community, the local community, so y'all can hear what they're working on and what they're are, they're developing. And with me today is our frequent flyer and one of my favorite people in the planet, uh, Dr. Orgul Ozturk, who has, uh, just recently hosted a fantastic event called Cradle to Career, which is all about South Carolina workforce development. So Orgul and I are gonna get into that, but you should know that she is the chair of the economics department and also the director for the Economic Policy Center at Darla Moore School of Business at the University of South Carolina. So, welcome, Orgul. I'm just so glad you're here,
Orgul Ozturk (01:13):
Uh, I am in the department every day, all day, and I try to keep my door open. Uh, being a department chair means people just show up.
Kasie Whitener (01:23):
Yeah.
New Speaker (01:24):
To talk about anything.
Kasie Whitener (01:25):
Yeah.
New Speaker (01:26):
And it is good. I mean, I'm not complaining. And it's basically it, you know, one, uh, scheduling is, is done. The next is coming up. Uh, and other meetings scheduled for this afternoon in addition to four others I had.
Kasie Whitener (01:39):
Yep.
Orgul Ozturk (01:40):
So that is the life of an econ chair combined with a center director.
Kasie Whitener (01:44):
All the meetings. All the meetings. All the meetings. Are you teaching this semester?
Orgul Ozturk (01:46):
I'm not teaching this semester. Okay. That is a big relief. But otherwise, that will be a crazy semester.
Kasie Whitener (01:52):
Yes. But you all do have PhD students who are in the department. Of course. So you've got some oversight as far as that's concerned.
Orgul Ozturk (01:56):
I mean, yeah. Uh, it's always there. Uh, you always supervise PhD students and honors thesis students, undergraduates, and some research, uh, scholars, students who wanna be involved in research.
Kasie Whitener (02:08):
Sure.
New Speaker (02:08):
Even if they are not honors, we do supervise them.
Kasie Whitener (02:12):
Yeah. That's good stuff. The economics department, our second favorite department of the Darla Moore School of Business. Being that I'm in the management department, you know, I've gotta put the management department first, but.
New Speaker (02:20):
You don't have to.
Kasie Whitener (02:22):
You know, I know If Dr. Paul Blize is listening. Management number one. Number one. Okay. So let's talk a little bit about Cradle to Career. The last time you were here, uh, we were talking about some of this really interesting economics research related to things like hospital, emergency room wait times. We were talking about, uh, hospitals getting certifications about, uh, certain ways that they handle newborns and, and babies. If you guys have not heard this episode with, uh, Dr. Ozturk the last time, you guys have got to listen to that episode. I, you were blowing my mind about some of this stuff as far as those hospital certifications are concerned, but in this case, it was about workforce development. So the, uh, uh, event took place on October 3rd. You brought scholars, you brought lawmakers, policymakers, and folks from the Department of Commerce. Everybody was sort of together in this summit that you all held to talk about workforce development. So bring us kind of up to speed on what was this all about.
Orgul Ozturk (03:13):
Sure. It wasn't only Department of Commerce. They were there, and they are one of my favorite groups. We had Department of Education. We had Department of Employment and Workforce First Steps, and colleagues from education department, as well as representative from, um, the university's administration. So, uh, the conference was trying to make, um, the goal of it. Our center's goal is to make our research more accessible, you know, more relevant or communicate it more to non-academic audiences. And, um, workforce related topics is one of our, um, main research area. So we started the day with the cradle with very early, um, inputs and ended it with the career side of things with the higher ed and outcomes of higher ed. And it was a fantastic day. Everybody was there. 8:30 to pretty much 6:00 PM. And I, I mean, uh, people listening, people asking questions, people interacting with the academics. And this was a fully academic conference, right? It was dream come true.
Kasie Whitener (04:18):
Yeah.
New Speaker (04:18):
For me.
Kasie Whitener (04:19):
So we had talked before, again, in a previous episode that you were here, we were unpacking the process of academic research where an academic researcher will read other people's work. They'll get this kind of inkling of a curiosity or a question that maybe falls outside of the scope of somebody else's work. Or a lot of times at the bottom of the research paper is areas for future research where the writers are saying, Hey, I didn't get a chance to look into this, but other people might wanna know these, you know, five or six questions. And so the researcher will grab one of those questions, they'll say, okay, I'm gonna build this study that's gonna help me understand the outcomes of this. You know, what really is the answer here? How can I prove the answer here? And then you and I talked about, that you develop the study, you get the study approved, then you actually go and execute the study, bring that data in, you work with secondary, uh, data. So you're bringing other people's data in as opposed to conducting brand new re you know, brand new data. And so you grab all of that stuff together. You put together, I mean, ridiculously complex mathematical equations as far as I'm concerned, because that's the part of the study that when I'm reading it, I'm like, I just believe you. I just have to, like, I have no idea if that math is gonna work. 'cause I don't math. But, um, other folks who are, that, that's what they do, statistical analysis, they'll go, okay, we get it. This is the right, uh, the right equation. And then you are able to kind of pull out of this data statistical analysis, you know, a probability scenario. Okay. Based on what we can see, the probabilities are this, that, and the other. And, uh, and then you've written this whole thing up. You've written all this research up, you're gonna put it toward your, uh, to, to maybe be published. And so now the, the journal is gonna take a look at it and all these peers are gonna take a look at it and they usually reject it and say, this is why we don't think it's Right. Right? And send it back to you, and then you guys have to fix it and revise it and get more data. And then you go back again with it. And sometimes this is like a two or three year process where it's being peer review is what it's called. Right? And so we know that when it does finally get accepted, and it does finally get published into, uh, the Journal of Management Science or Journal of Economics, like all these, these, when it finally gets published, we know this is real new knowledge that you all have discovered and been able to print. Okay. So you go into this Cradle to Career summit. And you say, or conference and you go, here's the things that we have this research that we have done and, and that we know. So give us, start us out with like one of the big ones that you all,that you all took on.
Orgul Ozturk (06:41):
So, um, these are, these conferences are another venue where we basically have, you know, our peers, uh, give us input on our research.
Kasie Whitener (06:51):
Right.
New Speaker (06:51):
So, uh, that is, uh, that was the initial goal we had, um, in the early childhood component, a paper, for example, about minimum wages and its effect on childcare, um, caregivers labor market.
Kasie Whitener (07:07):
Okay.
New Speaker (07:08):
You know,
Kasie Whitener (07:09):
Does that mean that the caregivers themselves are being paid minimum wage?
Orgul Ozturk (07:12):
Um, it can be. It's a low wage industry. And, uh, even if it is not what they are paid, all the other minimum wage jobs are substitutes for the job they're holding.
Kasie Whitener (07:22):
Right.
New Speaker (07:22):
And it's an easier job,
Kasie Whitener (07:23):
Right.
New Speaker (07:23):
To go, you know, flip burgers than deal with bunch of.
Kasie Whitener (07:26):
Yeah. Work At the convenience store or whatever.
New Speaker (07:28):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (07:29):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (07:29):
Exactly. So when those jobs become more attractive, what does happen to childcare, uh, you know, supply of childcare workers?
Kasie Whitener (07:35):
Gotcha.
Orgul Ozturk (07:36):
So that paper, for example, was using universe of all childcare workers,
Kasie Whitener (07:41):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (07:41):
Anybody who identified as someone who's working in childcare and looking at their mobility,
Kasie Whitener (07:46):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (07:46):
That gives us great insights, right? We understand how sensitive they are to wage movements. And this is one of the biggest issues. For example, our state is facing. We have big childcare deserts. We don't have accessible, uh, affordable childcare for many. How do we solve this problem and make work, work,
Kasie Whitener (08:04):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (08:04):
Uh, you know, it's an untapped potential. There was a big, um, event recently organized by a bunch of our state, uh, you know, stakeholders. And, um, you can provide insights.
Kasie Whitener (08:16):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (08:17):
Uh, policy insights, uh, you know, these are the things that can work, um, much better for this kind of crowd. Is, uh, was the conclusion of that paper?
Kasie Whitener (08:26):
So it's, uh, 'cause we're gonna have to go to break here in just a second, but it's fascinating to me that the research that we're looking at is saying, this is what we're seeing. This is what the people are experiencing, and these are the kinds of policies we're gonna need to be able to address their concerns.
Orgul Ozturk (08:38):
Yes. This is in fact,
Kasie Whitener (08:39):
It's, it's incredible stuff. All right. Cradle to Career. What? Dr. Ozturk, it's Moore Impact. We'll be right back.
Kasie Whitener (08:53):
Alright. Welcome back. It's Moore Impact, Kasie and Orgul, were talking about the October 3rd event, Cradle to Career. And we were starting with this conversation around early childhood educators and how the wages that are paid to those early childhood educators create some disparity in that marketplace because there's a switching cost, right? So if another job opens up that is a more, uh, attractive job, then they'll go and take that. So the, the conclusion of the paper was that we need to raise wages for, and, and by we, I mean, society needs to find a way to pay these, these childcare, early childcare workers more.
Orgul Ozturk (09:29):
Yes. Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (09:29):
And value them more.
Orgul Ozturk (09:30):
And in a way that is not necessarily, uh, by increasing the cost of childcare, right? Because again, that's the other side of the equation. It's quite, um, hard for a lot of people to,
Kasie Whitener (09:41):
To afford it.
Orgul Ozturk (09:42):
To afford it. And, um, it is a very labor intensive job. And most of the costs are labor costs.
Kasie Whitener (09:50):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (09:50):
So when you increase minimum wages, for example, it's going to be directly it, you know, respond to the cost is gonna respond to it. So what do we do? Um, how, and how much, uh, the government needs to subsidize this public good. Basically. And, uh, what should be the price that is going to keep, um, the workers in that sector and create a stable, uh, labor force.
Kasie Whitener (10:15):
Yeah. And that, and you mentioned that the idea too, that those minimum wage workers who are working outside the home that need childcare, there need to be those affordable options for them to be able to pay for that childcare. So we're talking about it on both the supply and the demand side, that the cost of childcare is not, uh, it, it's, there's too much tension between needing it to be inexpensive for the payer, but also needing it to generate enough income for the provider.
Orgul Ozturk (10:40):
Exactly. I mean, it needs to be verted. On both sides of the equation, both the parents and the workers.
Kasie Whitener (10:46):
Is this a uniquely South Carolina challenge, or is it all over the nation?
Orgul Ozturk (10:50):
It is all over the nation. Yeah. Uh, but, uh, we are definitely facing, um, it's very, uh, deep, um, shortages in terms of childcare providers.
Kasie Whitener (11:00):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (11:00):
And I mean, it is, uh, true in all sorts of levels of education.
Kasie Whitener (11:04):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (11:05):
Early childcare.
Kasie Whitener (11:06):
Sure. And I, I think about this too, about some of our peers, right? That when they have young children, uh, they'll leave the workforce because it is more expensive for them to pay for childcare than it is for them to simply care for those children in those first five years before they go to public education, before they go to elementary school. Right. As a.
Orgul Ozturk (11:22):
Exactly.
Orgul Ozturk (11:23):
You know, as a kindergartner,
Orgul Ozturk (11:24):
Especially high quality childcare is quite expensive for many people, right?
Kasie Whitener (11:28):
Yeah. So when we think about, uh, those women who are leaving the, or, or men too, but the family member, the adult who's leaving the workforce for those four or five years to care for those small children, we're also seeing a, a shortage labor wise, you know, in South Carolina of that if they're, if they're opting out of childcare and instead they're doing it at home. Yeah. Um, and, and, and missing them from the workforce as well.
Orgul Ozturk (11:47):
Yes. Exactly. Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (11:49):
Yeah. Alright. So what else did you guys work on? This is, so this is our Workforce development conference, and I'm, I just wanna get the, like, full summary and rundown.
Orgul Ozturk (11:56):
Yes. We are going down.
Kasie Whitener (11:57):
Orgul Ozturk (12:01):
So I mean, um, this was the early part of the morning, and, uh, this lines up very nicely, uh, with my colleague Jessica Brown's work. She does work on the issues related to childcare markets and the, um, labor supply side of it. How, um, quality childcare is provided, what determines the, um, you know, availability of it. So it was nice to have her, uh, research kind of, um, get some attention through our, uh, partners in First Steps and also Department of Education. Then we came to the K through 12 part of it.
Kasie Whitener (12:36):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (12:36):
So, and,
Kasie Whitener (12:37):
Oh, hang on real quick, as we were talking about First Steps, is there anything in that conversation that talks about how valuable First Steps is in terms of Yes. Three year olds and four year olds getting that early start on education?
Orgul Ozturk (12:48):
Yeah. I mean, the other paper that we covered in that was the, uh, on the input side of it. There was an experiment done in, uh, Michigan, and there was an evaluation of that early childhood, uh, education, um, program.
Kasie Whitener (13:01):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (13:02):
In Michigan with administrative data as our second presenter. And we learned that yes.
Kasie Whitener (13:08):
Long-term academic success, right? Yeah.
Orgul Ozturk (13:09):
Like long-term academic success. It's not only academics, it's about everything.
Kasie Whitener (13:12):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (13:13):
And those academics gains, uh, translate into labor market gains, healthcare gains better, uh, adults.
Kasie Whitener (13:19):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (13:20):
And not only better, um, you know, um, happier kids turn into happier adults.
Kasie Whitener (13:25):
Right. Getting them in early 3-year-old, 4-year-old. Right. Well before kindergarten.
Orgul Ozturk (13:30):
Huge. Huge, um, returns to early childhood inputs.
Kasie Whitener (13:32):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (13:33):
And, um, these returns don't necessarily fade away if they're done right.
Kasie Whitener (13:37):
Okay. Sorry, I wanted to, before we move on. So now we're into elementary school.
Orgul Ozturk (13:40):
Yes. That, I mean, not only elementary school, it was elementary and high school, you know, K through 12. Um, but we were talking about in one paper about different, uh, pedagogical practices, having classes that are subject base and led by subject, um, matter teachers.
Orgul Ozturk (13:57):
So a math class and English class.
Orgul Ozturk (13:59):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (14:00):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (14:00):
So separating those versus not doing so early on. We already do that in, uh, later grades. Right. But having it, uh, earlier, how does it translate into gains in math, ELA, et cetera?
Kasie Whitener (14:12):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (14:12):
Like academically.
Kasie Whitener (14:13):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (14:13):
So we talked about that and, um, we show that it doesn't always produce an increased, uh, you know, desired outcome, but it does so for certain subgroups.
Kasie Whitener (14:24):
Okay.
Orgul Ozturk (14:24):
So there is some ity in return. So knowing when it is worth it and when it's not okay. Is a very valuable information, um, you know, policy makers need to have. So we don't think that it's always good.
Kasie Whitener (14:36):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (14:36):
And put a lot of money because this is, again, if you are going to have a separate teacher.
Kasie Whitener (14:40):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (14:40):
It's a lot of salaries have to be paid and you need to have it, uh, you know, returns justified.
Kasie Whitener (14:46):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (14:46):
And then we moved on to career and technical education.
Kasie Whitener (14:49):
Before we get to that. So the, uh, 'cause we've got plenty of time.
Orgul Ozturk (14:52):
Okay.
Kasie Whitener (14:53):
Before we get to that, when we think about the, uh, so education reform, the conversation of making the schools more competitive, right? Like everybody is, there's a lot, a lot, a lot of conversation. And I know, uh, the superintendent I think was there with you guys, um, so Ellen Weaver, so there's a lot of conversation. She wasn't, she wasn't able to attend. So there's a lot of conversation in the, um, Palmetto Teachers Association and some of these other places where if we go and try to implement some kind of change to the way education is delivered in a pedagogy study, what you guys are saying is we looked at when the delivery changed, when the mechanisms changed, and we tell you these are the outcomes. Right. And there's not a significant difference across the board, but in some groups it is a significant difference if they can focus on a specific subject at a time.
Orgul Ozturk (15:41):
Yeah.
Kasie Whitener (15:41):
So this is the kind of thing that then, you know, educators and the school boards and all these kinds of things start going, okay, how do we reorganize school to try to meet some of these outcomes that we wanna see with these particular groups? And yet, uh, the conversation I was having with a guy named, uh, Patrick Kelly, who teaches AP government at Blythewood High School, he's my daughter's AP government teacher. He and I were talking about when you make a change like that for any period of time, those students are gonna move through the change, right? And then if it's a devastating change, right? You've just ruined this whole crop of students versus like, if it's a really great change, then these people have this tremendous advantage over the people that came before them. Right? But you don't ever really know, unless you're looking at this kind of data that you, you guys as researchers say, Hey, this is what we're seeing and these are where we think we can make a positive impact.
Orgul Ozturk (16:30):
And one thing about econ research, at least about, um, you know, uh, topics like this, we are utilizing, like you said, secondary data. It's already existing data.
Kasie Whitener (16:38):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (16:39):
And we are, this is not million dollars study.
Kasie Whitener (16:42):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (16:44):
I mean, it is always true. If you put more inputs into a product, it is going to turn out better.
Kasie Whitener (16:50):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (16:50):
But econ research tries to bring, it's not only about the positive gains. How does that positive gain compare to the cost of achieving it?
Kasie Whitener (16:58):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (16:59):
And we have many different policy options, many different programs, options.
Kasie Whitener (17:03):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (17:04):
Which one we choose. I mean, econ we always say is a study of scarce resources, how we allocate. So money being one, how do you allocate it across different programs and interventions you do so by identifying the ones that are going to bring in the highest returns. So the, from, um, this point of view, we are utilizing it data.
Kasie Whitener (17:24):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (17:24):
And also it is not, um, it is not restricted to a certain group. We have a, usually a very large, uh, group of individuals. We look at all sorts of different students with different backgrounds, different schools, and we try to identify these natural experiments.
Kasie Whitener (17:39):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (17:39):
Weird rules about the programs that create, you know, coin toss like environments.
Kasie Whitener (17:44):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (17:45):
And compare, uh, uh, people who are like each each other.
Kasie Whitener (17:49):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (17:49):
But exposed to different environments.
Kasie Whitener (17:52):
So I think about the, like, the way the structure of the classroom is, the way the, the schedule gets structured. I mean, we have the Richland School District One here has a rotating schedule where like, every day, the first class is a different class with the idea that if students are chronically tardy, they're not gonna rack up tardies just in a single class, right? I mean, that's just an innovative way to go. Like, but it also creates some chaos in terms of like, which day is it? And what's my first class today?
Orgul Ozturk (18:18):
It is a free day. You know, what do happen? Is it an a day or is it a B day? I mean,
Kasie Whitener (18:22):
Right, exactly. So like these kinds of innovative ideas that people have that they wanna implement, but then they can come to the researchers and say, Hey, have you seen this anywhere else? And if you did, what were the outcomes there?
Orgul Ozturk (18:34):
Yeah, exactly.
Kasie Whitener (18:35):
And do we think it's gonna work for our group too?
Orgul Ozturk (18:36):
Exactly. Exactly. And it's not gonna work for everyone.
Kasie Whitener (18:38):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (18:39):
That's another thing. But you know, again, every program is like this. And you try to basically identify the one that is going to have the best outcome for the most people, and on average, Uh, most highest return.
Kasie Whitener (18:51):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (18:52):
The dollar you spend on it. Um, but, um, so it was an interesting study in that way, uh, which led us to our high school side of things.
Kasie Whitener (19:00):
Yes.
Orgul Ozturk (19:01):
And we looked at something, again, very important for our state college and career readiness, uh, technical education.
Kasie Whitener (19:08):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (19:08):
And, you know, not everybody is college-bound or should be college-bound. And how do we, um, decide what are the inputs that are most valuable or who should do what kind of technical education? So, uh, that was a study that was coming from Georgia, uh, a center, Georgia Policy Labs very similar to ours with the similar goals. So we, uh, learned about dare, um, actually that was for me, the highlight, mostly because they had a very good way of communicating with the policy makers, bringing academics, but also, and knowing the audience.
Kasie Whitener (19:43):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (19:44):
They were able to say, Hey, this is what we did in Georgia.
Kasie Whitener (19:47):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (19:47):
This is what you can do in South Carolina. This is the type of things we are, and, and we are gonna collaborate to bring this multi-state perspective. Uh, we are working on, uh, something together. But they were able to bring Tennessee, they were able to bring Texas. They were able to bring, uh, you know, Georgia experience and have a comparative, uh, visual for us.
Kasie Whitener (20:09):
Sure. These are our peers.
Orgul Ozturk (20:10):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (20:11):
I mean, if you think about South Carolina as a state, the ones around us are the ones.
Orgul Ozturk (20:14):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (20:14):
With whom we're competing for families that would move here and put their kids into our school system.
Orgul Ozturk (20:18):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (20:18):
And people that don't wanna take jobs in South Carolina because they're worried about what their kids' education's gonna look like. So we are competing against Georgia and Tennessee and North Carolina. And, and so you wanna know what are they doing and, and can we do it better?
Orgul Ozturk (20:30):
And our skill gaps are, their skill gaps too, because we are all exposed to the same kind of labor market shocks, you know, technological advancement. That is leaving, you know, the, um, we are no longer able to, um, all these new jobs being created. We don't necessarily have the skills and education needs to adjust to provide those skills to students, prepare those students for those careers where we have these large gaps.
Kasie Whitener (20:54):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (20:54):
So, I mean, this is big issue for our state, and I was so happy to see, uh, examples, uh, of innovative ways to communicate, um, better policies, better programs, and also highlight some of the work we are doing.
Kasie Whitener (21:08):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (21:09):
So I myself work on K to 12 education in some of my work, and we have other colleagues as well doing similar work. So it was really good to show our administrators, Hey, this is what we can do for you too.
Kasie Whitener (21:20):
Yes.
Orgul Ozturk (21:20):
This work with us.
Kasie Whitener (21:21):
Yes. On the other side of the break, we're gonna talk a little bit more about some of the research that was done specifically on those high school students. We'll be right back. It's Moore Impact. Don't go away.
Kasie Whitener (21:51):
All right. Welcome back to Moore Impact Kasie and Orgul here. Were talking about the Cradle to Career Summit conference that was held at the University of South Carolina's, Darla Moore School of Business on October 3rd, where our economics professors and their colleagues got together with some, uh, policy makers, lawmakers, representatives from the, uh, South Carolina Department of Education, Department of Employment and Workforce, Department of Commerce, uh, all these folks in the same room to have these conversations around here's what the studies are showing us on these various topics. And oh, by the way, here's some policies that are in place that may not be getting the results that you're looking for. And here's some policies that are in place that are working very well. And, and so kind of a great little report card opportunity on October 3rd. And as we were going to break, we were talking about these studies related to the high school students and what we're seeing in terms of workforce readiness.
Orgul Ozturk (22:37):
And, um, I mean, it was good to, uh, show our Department of Education, which I must say we've been having a lot of conversations and they're interested in us, EPIC study, uh, college and career readiness. And I just wanted to, uh, show, showcase what we can do.
Kasie Whitener (22:56):
They do want to be data driven.
Orgul Ozturk (22:57):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (22:57):
They do want to make decisions based on what they're seeing.
Orgul Ozturk (23:00):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (23:01):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (23:01):
And, uh, it was great. Uh, I mean, um, we've been working on an MOU that's, uh, you know, Mutual Use Agreement of Sources,
Kasie Whitener (23:09):
Memorandum,
Orgul Ozturk (23:09):
Memorandum of
Kasie Whitener (23:10):
Understanding
Orgul Ozturk (23:11):
Understanding. I mean, it doesn't really mean much to an audience, but it is, um, going to give us access to some data that we are going to use for the purpose of research, obviously, but also produce reports for them to use in their decision making. And I really appreciate them being very open to, like you said, data-driven policy, making sure. And we are hoping to collaborate further with also college, um, Commission of Higher Education and Department of Employment and Workforce. So we can think about this as a cradle to career.
Kasie Whitener (23:44):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (23:44):
You know, the, it's not only just immediate outcomes, but a lot of the educational inputs have very long-term implications.
Kasie Whitener (23:51):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (23:51):
And evaluating them is quite important in making right decisions.
Kasie Whitener (23:55):
We talked about that the last time you were here when we were talking about the free lunch programs. And, um, how there's data that shows that when schools are just, everybody gets free lunch, that everything seems to be better. And the long term outcomes for the children that go through a program where everybody gets lunch, nobody has to worry about who does and who doesn't. Excuse me. That those outcomes are better for everybody in the long term. So this kind of research is just your wheelhouse. This is what you guys do, where you go out and say, what are the policies that are in place? And then, and then how do they work?
Orgul Ozturk (24:25):
Yeah.
Kasie Whitener (24:25):
So, um, so bring us, as we're going through our schedule here, we've just talked a little bit about, uh, the K through 12 stuff. What, what came next in the conversation.
Orgul Ozturk (24:33):
Next was, you know, the career side of things. And, um, this was post-secondary, uh, that is college education. And, uh, and then, uh, some occupational licensing, occupational look, uh, regulations. Uh, I was looking at the career side of things. So we had one, um, researcher who talked to us about, and she's one of ours, um, assistant professor of ours at the economics department, Lois Miller, talked about college transfers. From two year colleges to four year colleges. And it doesn't always work out for people. I mean, this is a cost, a higher cost education. Is it going to worth it? Answer is not always. Yes.
Kasie Whitener (25:14):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (25:14):
So her research highlights for whom these transfers produce better long-term outcomes and for whom it doesn't.
Kasie Whitener (25:21):
Right. And she's been here on Moore Impact. We talked about that exact study and exactly what the colleges need to do to recognize the students who are likely to be successful here, and to support the students who are likely to struggle when they do that two year to four year. And this, I thought was really relevant for those folks who are saying things like, the four year education is too expensive. We're gonna get a two year, you know, associate's degree at the, at the local community college, and then transfer to the four year to finish that bachelor's degree. But the outcomes of that are not always what you would think they would be.
Orgul Ozturk (25:50):
No. Yeah. They're not always worth it.
Kasie Whitener (25:52):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (25:52):
And, um, so it was very nice to hear her research, and I must say our main sponsor for the event at who contributed to, uh, you know, our conference was student SC Student Loan Foundation. And they really want to know more about research, uh, on how can we make college more affordable for more. And how can we help our students make the right choices in terms of what college to attend, what major to, you know, choose. And, um, I think we are going to collaborate further, um, and maybe even, uh, more on this conference, but beyond that. And it was good to have them in the audience.
Kasie Whitener (26:34):
Yeah.
Orgul Ozturk (26:34):
And listen to, and these are not researchers, but they were there all day. And, um, I don't think they understood all the math, but, uh, I mean, they were all engaged. They were all interested. Nobody was, um, zoned out. Nobody was looking at their cell phones.
Kasie Whitener (26:49):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (26:50):
Everybody was, uh, listening and, uh, engaging with our researchers.
Kasie Whitener (26:54):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (26:55):
But, um, so that was really good to have that, uh, paper presented, which then, um, gave way to another paper on the career side of things. We were talking about how changes in, um, uh, licensing requirements. What they need to get a license for, in this case. Um, individuals who are working in the beauty sector. When you reduce their hours, uh, of training needed.
Kasie Whitener (27:21):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (27:21):
How does it translate into outcomes for them?
Kasie Whitener (27:24):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (27:24):
And in this case, uh, it was a positive outcome. Uh, nobody ended up with a really bad, uh, you know, haircut.
Kasie Whitener (27:32):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (27:33):
Even when you didn't require hairdressers to have tens of th uh, you know, thousands of, uh, hours of training.
Kasie Whitener (27:40):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (27:40):
I mean, thousand but thousands of
Kasie Whitener (27:41):
No, no, no, you're not wrong. Because occupational licensing is one of the big conversations that had around workforce in general because it creates barriers to entry, for individuals who want to go into these different occupations. And then once they get into those occupations, maintaining those licenses with a, uh, a burdensome amount of continuing education, a lot of times, not even really relevant continuing education.
Orgul Ozturk (28:04):
Not productive at all.
Kasie Whitener (28:05):
But in order for them to, and they can't, they're not getting paid while they're doing that because they can't see clients 'cause they're having to do this, these, uh, continuing education and they have to pay out of pocket for those continuing education units as well. So it is just a burden for folks that are trying to be into some of these overly regulated, overly, you know, the occupational licensing space. So it's great to hear that there's research done on it and that South Carolina is taking a look at it.
Orgul Ozturk (28:27):
Yeah. I mean, it was good to have in the audience. Um, so I must say Rebecca Battle Bryant, she is, um, you know, at D.E.W and she oversees all the workforce development in our state. And Rebecca Gunnlaugsson at Department of Education, they were our keynote speakers. So they were able to give us what are the pressing issues in our state.
Kasie Whitener (28:48):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (28:48):
Point of view in our lunchtime. And then their keynotes followed nicely, uh, with these two, um, you know, work two research, uh, papers that were directly speaking to, and we are struggling filling these skill gaps.
Kasie Whitener (29:02):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (29:02):
We are struggling with all these burdensome regulations, how to balance, I mean, you at the end want some regulation, minimal regulation to be able to maintain standards, but if they are turning into gatekeepers. And not producing any positive productivity.
Kasie Whitener (29:18):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (29:18):
Outcomes, why do it.
Kasie Whitener (29:19):
Right. And that now, so was LLR there, the, uh, labor and, uh, licensing and regulatory, is that what they're called? LLR?
Orgul Ozturk (29:27):
I am not sure. I mean, but.
Kasie Whitener (29:29):
Yeah. But, they're ones that do the licensing.
Orgul Ozturk (29:31):
There were a lot of DEW, that is Department of Employement and Workforce, and I know they have all these different stuff.
Kasie Whitener (29:35):
They have the relationships. Sure. I'm sure.
Orgul Ozturk (29:36):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (29:37):
Yeah. So it's, I think it's interesting too when we think about South Carolina trying to get a view of where we are right now, and then try to look forward, where do we think we need to be? So was there any kind of research or conversation that said like, Hey, these are the predictions that we have for the future and this is what we think we should be investing in now to get us to that space.
Orgul Ozturk (29:57):
So, there was a lot of conversations around that. And again, the whole point of the conference was for me to communicate, Hey, this is what we can do. We can help you.
Kasie Whitener (30:07):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (30:08):
Uh, you know, chart better, uh, roots policies for a better outcome in the labor market for our state.
Kasie Whitener (30:14):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (30:15):
In terms of, you know, these, uh, identifying the needs and addressing the needs or finding the policies that are gonna best address those needs.
Kasie Whitener (30:23):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (30:23):
So, uh, we had a lot of conversations during the lunchtime, during the breaks and following the event, we had a little, uh, round table, uh, discussion in most of, more of a networking event.
Kasie Whitener (30:34):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (30:35):
But the goal was to come up with these, what are the questions? What did you learn? What was the highlight of the day for you?
Kasie Whitener (30:41):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (30:42):
So we allowed people to communicate that. And we have a follow up survey. I'm looking forward to seeing the, you know, results of that.
Kasie Whitener (30:48):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (30:49):
Just to get this input and identify the points that we can help.
Kasie Whitener (30:53):
Yeah. I'm wondering too, like, it's, so it's feels counterintuitive to have this like, backward looking data and then to try to use it to predict what we think is gonna be in the future. And you mentioned things like AI and, uh, technical skills and technical, the, the kinds of, uh, labor force expectations that we have. And I remember we go back like to the nineties where there was a lot of conversation from the White House all the way down about becoming computer programmers and learn how to code, be a software development. And there was a lot of investment in coding and trying to get people into these, uh, technological careers. And those careers didn't really pan out the way we expected them to. And so the question is like, how good are we at reading that backward looking data and being able to predict this is the direction we think we're gonna go.
Orgul Ozturk (31:39):
I mean, um, we are not always a hundred percent obviously, but there is a lot to be learned from past experiences and past, you know, failures.
Kasie Whitener (31:48):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (31:48):
As well as the successes, right?
Kasie Whitener (31:50):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (31:50):
So, And, uh, it is relatively, I mean, you can, like you said, we are not, we cannot necessarily predict that something that is not yet there.
Kasie Whitener (31:59):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (31:59):
But we can, I mean, there is, at the end of the day, um, for many of these technological advancements, what we need is the core education.
Kasie Whitener (32:09):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (32:09):
And logical thinking, better reading ability, better mathematical, you know, fluency.
Kasie Whitener (32:14):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (32:14):
And ways to teach this is, um, improving. And we can do a better job of those that translate.
Kasie Whitener (32:22):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (32:23):
To anything that is going to make the workforce more agile.
Kasie Whitener (32:26):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (32:27):
Adaptable,
Kasie Whitener (32:28):
Sure. And more, uh, capable.
Orgul Ozturk (32:30):
Capable.
Kasie Whitener (32:30):
Once those skills become obvious, these are the skills we need to have. But, but they're already built to be able to.
Orgul Ozturk (32:36):
And knowing how those general skills feed into these maybe more, uh, specialized ways to use those skills.
Orgul Ozturk (32:43):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (32:43):
Is what research does, I think. And at least in this stage when we don't yet know what is to come. But I mean, that is also, um, another thing that we bring on the table sometimes with this mat. The, what we are trying to do is model what we see.
Kasie Whitener (32:58):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (32:58):
So when then we can change the parameters of what we are constructing as our world.
Kasie Whitener (33:06):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (33:06):
That we try to predict it. What is happening.
Kasie Whitener (33:09):
If we give more of this or more of that.
Orgul Ozturk (33:11):
Yeah, exactly.
Kasie Whitener (33:11):
Yeah.
Orgul Ozturk (33:11):
So we can do those counterfactual.
Kasie Whitener (33:13):
Okay.
Orgul Ozturk (33:13):
Um, predictive analysis. And that is something that's not gonna be, uh, possible just by looking at the data in a statistical way.
Kasie Whitener (33:21):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (33:22):
You need to kind of think about in a framework and a model.
Kasie Whitener (33:24):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (33:24):
Structurally think about the environment and then fit that environment. So, and you know, you are doing a good job.
Kasie Whitener (33:31):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (33:31):
Um, and by moving little pieces, see, create a new world.
Kasie Whitener (33:36):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (33:37):
See what is going to happen to the results in that new environment.
Kasie Whitener (33:41):
Um, and you just kind of mentioned the, the phrase, the predictive analytics phrase, right? And we do have the center for, um, for analysis in that way, Caba, um, that's getting, you know, back up and going as well. And the South Carolina Student Loan Corporation was one of those sponsors as well. So it's interesting to see how they're coming forward and, and looking for those things. We'll be right back.
Kasie Whitener (34:23):
All right. Welcome back to Moore Impact. Can you believe we're in the last segment already?
Orgul Ozturk (36:18):
I mean, um, that is the core of, like I said, we are trying to understand what pays off and, um, in this collaboration that I am going to start soon with the Department of Education. So, for example, one of the things they are interested in is, um, you know, the technology that we are using Evermore.
Kasie Whitener (36:39):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (36:39):
In our classrooms. And I think we are realizing, they're realizing that technology is not always good. It's not always good for all the students. Um, and or technology, um, that is aiding teacher, uh, is good, but replacing teacher is not.
Kasie Whitener (37:00):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (37:00):
And, um, a lot of these learning, um, platforms are becoming these platforms where student just learns to press on a button.
Kasie Whitener (37:10):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (37:11):
Until they get the right answer.
Kasie Whitener (37:12):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (37:13):
And they don't challenge the student, they don't make them curly, uh, you know, critically think. So, um, these are the type of research we can do. We can analyze basically what, uh, technology is enhancing learning.
Kasie Whitener (37:28):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (37:28):
While the others are supressing.
Kasie Whitener (37:30):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (37:30):
And resulting in worse outcomes for our kids.
Kasie Whitener (37:34):
I think, uh, certainly after COVID and people went home, there was a lot of online schooling. We were just having this conversation, a group I was in about homeschooling versus online schooling as homeschooling. Right. Uh, and then I've got students that will take in our textbook. There are quizzes at the end of each chapter, and they will skip the reading and just go to the quiz and try to take the quiz without ever having done the reading because they're, the key is to get past the quiz. It's not to do the reading necessarily. So if they can take the quiz and not have to do the reading, that's exactly what they're gonna, so these kinds of like motivation things where the path of least resistance, I'm gonna do it the easiest way. Like these are just human nature things.
Orgul Ozturk (38:11):
Yes.
Kasie Whitener (38:12):
How does education create environments where students are bring their, they bring their curiosity into the room with them.
Kasie Whitener (38:19):
They're asking the questions, they're wanting to dig deeper and learn a little bit more. Like, uh, and I'm even having this conversation with my daughter about how do we get over this academic fatigue that our students experience when they come to higher ed? And, uh, and they do just wanna like, let me just do what I have to have to do to get outta here as opposed to like, I'm here to learn, to think and to be engaged and to be curious. Um, I don't know. I don't know what your undergrad experience was like, but mine was like mind melting. I was so excited to be in this space where I was challenged all the time and I had all these opportunities. I took this philosophy of religion class once that I was like, every day I went into that class and was just blown away by the way I was being taught to think and to understand and like, and I'm just curious about like, when, when are our students having those experiences on campus and how can we make more of them?
Orgul Ozturk (39:07):
Yeah. I mean, um, I think one, uh, not everybody's having those experiences.
Kasie Whitener (39:14):
Right. Well, you had colleagues from the, uh, department of education or from the, uh, school of education Yes. In the same room here while you guys were having these conversations. So some of the research was coming from that school too.
Orgul Ozturk (39:23):
Yeah. I mean, uh, they were in the room and, um, we had, for example, um, experts who are, remember that paper I talked about? Having subject, uh, focused classrooms, teachers. We have some, um, researchers who were in the room who, uh, think every day about this. How do you teach math better?
Kasie Whitener (39:45):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (39:45):
Who can teach math better at the elementary school level and how do different, actually technology was represented there too.
Kasie Whitener (39:51):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (39:52):
It's learning, um, tools, learning technological tools, how which ones are most, um, useful and appropriate. Um, so it was really good to get those insights.
Kasie Whitener (40:02):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (40:02):
And that's a very different type of research they do. They do more primary data collection. Small scale research, more focus. So combining I think are two sizes what we need to do more of.
Kasie Whitener (40:13):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (40:14):
But, um, it was, uh, it is true that we are losing college as that hey, where you come and every day you are exposed to something new and you are excited to be.
Kasie Whitener (40:28):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (40:28):
Exposed to something new. It's no longer everybody's experience. Or it is, maybe it was never, maybe it was just some romanticized version of it.
Kasie Whitener (40:36):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (40:36):
But I think one part is, um, we all feel like everybody needs to go to college.
Kasie Whitener (40:43):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (40:43):
And, uh, we, I think need to think really hard about this alternative.
Kasie Whitener (40:48):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (40:48):
Uh, technical colleges, technical education and having students be able to have or be aware that they can have very rewarding careers. Without college.
Kasie Whitener (41:00):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (41:00):
And we do need people who deal with electric, uh, coal, you know, equipment. We need people who can build stuff.
Kasie Whitener (41:09):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (41:10):
And, um, we can have those kind of education done outside of college much better.
Kasie Whitener (41:17):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (41:17):
And more productively. That's the kind of, I think, uh, mentality change we need.
Kasie Whitener (41:22):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (41:23):
Once you have that, anybody who wants to have more every day, I wanna expose myself to liberal arts education, learn, think more.
Kasie Whitener (41:32):
right.
Orgul Ozturk (41:32):
So that I can maybe get into this research production, Or idea production. We need that.
Kasie Whitener (41:39):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (41:40):
And we can only create that environment if we, um, don't make everybody feel like they have to be in college.
Kasie Whitener (41:48):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (41:48):
But we choose to be in college.
Kasie Whitener (41:49):
Right. Well, and let's go, I mean, economics is all about incentives too.
Orgul Ozturk (41:53):
Yeah.
Kasie Whitener (41:53):
So it kind of goes back to the policies that are implemented and how those policies reward certain outcomes and certain behaviors. And when schools incentivize kids, you know, they're, the schools are incentivized to send to, to direct the children to college and this kind of thing. So, um, you know, a court, all of that sort of policy stuff that can be unpacked, I think on campus, it's amazing that we have this center. We have you guys all as economics researchers that are, uh, encouraged to do this research and come up with these conclusions that basically say, don't come to school here.
Orgul Ozturk (42:27):
Kasie Whitener (42:27):
Like, it's absolutely awesome to be in a place where you can actually come out with research that goes, you know what? We're not right for everybody. Like, we're not the perfect fit for everybody. And that's fully, um, I think embraced at the university, but being like, we get it. Like we're not for everybody and it's fine to have this research that shows that there are career paths that are better career paths for our young people. How do our policy makers envision, or in any of that conversation, did you guys talk about at what point do we identify which career path these students should be taking? I mean, is it as early as elementary school when they show an affinity for math or science? Or is it not till middle school when they start to figure out like, this is what the, how the world works? Like where do, do we pinpoint like, this is your, your career trajectory starts here? Or, or does anybody even know?
Orgul Ozturk (43:15):
Uh, no, not yet. I think, I mean, there's a lot of work being done in other states, not necessarily to end, but kind of in a way that can contribute to that end. And this is actually something that we are asked to do.
Kasie Whitener (43:25):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (43:26):
Identifying the intervention points. Best, um, points, uh, times, uh, grades to kind of, um, think about careers and um, uh, 'cause right now we have, as early as middle school, we have these individuals lies, uh, study plans for students. But it is not necessarily the appropriate starting point. We are investing a lot into, uh, these, um, career, uh, advisement, et cetera.
Kasie Whitener (43:55):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (43:55):
But, um, if it is, this is the number one thing we are gonna study, are all those things that we are inputting, resulting in an outcome of, uh, a desired outcome.
Kasie Whitener (44:06):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (44:07):
Um, are we, if we are directing bunch of students to stem, are they actually going and choosing stem?
Kasie Whitener (44:12):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (44:12):
If not, why do we do this?
Kasie Whitener (44:14):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (44:14):
So that's the type of research we are gonna do and help our Department of Education colleagues, you know, hopefully make better, uh, investments.
Kasie Whitener (44:22):
Yes, A hundred percent. And, uh, and not necessarily be at the whim of the, the vendors that come in.
Orgul Ozturk (44:27):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (44:27):
With the different technology that they want to sell into the school district.
Orgul Ozturk (44:31):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (44:31):
Yeah. Oh man. I'm, I'm fully in favor of that. Every time you're here, I learn so much, and every time you bring such incredible research that's happening, how can people find the work that EPIC is doing that's accessible to them to be able to see what you guys are working on?
Orgul Ozturk (44:44):
So they can write to me, uh, I'm the EPIC Director at Moore that, uh, sc.edu. Uh, but also we have a website and if they want to find it, um, our, um, conference website, it, it is going to be SCCradletoCareer.edu.com. Uh, so if they just search South Carolina Cradle to Career, they should be able to find it. Okay. And, um, but economics department has links to all sorts of things Sure. As well as the, the Dalra Moore School of Business website. So, um, I'll be more than happy to go engage through LinkedIn as well. Yeah. But anyone who is interested in our work.
Kasie Whitener (45:24):
Orgul Ozturk, you're so amazing. Um, this is, like I said, every time you're here, I learn so much sc.edu in the search bar at the top right corner, put in economics and you'll find the economics department. You can also put in Darla Moore School of Business, you'll find the Darla Moore School and be able to link to all of the additional resources there. Thank you for being here.
Orgul Ozturk (45:41):
Sure. My pleasure.
Kasie Whitener (45:42):
This has been Moore Impact. When you learn more, you know more, and when you know more, you do more. Thanks for listening.