Season 2 Episode 45
Creating Excitement Around Economics
Dr. Orgul Ozturk is the department chair and professor of economics in the Darla Moore School of Business at the University of South Carolina. Her academic research interests are in applied microeconomics fields, specifically labor economics and health economics. Ozturk has written articles on the effects of labor market regulations and minimum wages on female employment, effectiveness of supported employment programs for developmentally disabled, the relationship between occupation choice and welfare independence, and the effects of maternal employment and welfare use on children’s cognitive outcomes.
Orgul has been a frequent guest on Moore Impact, where she has discussed her research, the research review and publication process and the Economic Policy Innovation Center. Dr. Ozturk’s last appearance was following the Cradle to Career Conference last October.
Topics Include:
To learn more about the Economic Policy Innovation Center, click here.
To learn more about the Darla Moore School of Business, click here.
Photo Courtesy: CartoonStock
Kasie Whitener (00:03):
Good morning, welcome into Moore Impact. My name is Kasie Whitener. I'm your host on our show here on 100.7, The Point and makethepointradio.com. And also the Moore Impact podcast, where we like to bring our scholars and practitioners in from the Darla Moore School of Business, the number one international business school in the world. Thank you very much.
Orgul Ozturk (01:05):
I am doing well, uh, just wrapped up, uh, phase two of hiring, and I'm trying to recoup from that still, like recoup
Kasie Whitener (01:14):
The academic hiring process is like the longest hiring process on the planet when people think about like applying for jobs. If you, if this job opens up in August, it is not going to be filled until next year.
Orgul Ozturk (01:26):
Yeah.
Kasie Whitener (01:27):
It is a full year process. Tell us a little bit, like, what are the, you said phase two, so what are the phases of these, of this hiring process?
Orgul Ozturk (01:32):
So you know, uh, our application closes, um, for best consideration, uh, middle of November. And, um, we receive all these applications along with a lot of reference letters, full size papers, which are, uh, job market papers, tends to be around a hundred pages. And, um, I mean, first of all, we decide what to hire, what is needed in the department in terms of teaching and research needs. Anyways, um, many, many scholars, new rookies mostly send their, uh, application materials to us. And then, uh, given what we need, we construct a search committee and starts reviewing all these pages and pages of applications.
Kasie Whitener (02:16):
And how many applications did you get for the two positions that you all have identified?
Orgul Ozturk (02:19):
So, econ is extraordinarily large. Uh, in terms of, um, how many people we, uh, graduate every year, uh, for, um, if we keep it open, we get about 500 to 600 applications. But if we restrict the field, it goes down. This year we had one open position, which got about 600 applications and one with an AI focus. And that, uh, kind of focused nature of it kept the applications around 200. Overall, there was some overlap between those two. Uh, we had about 700 applications to review.
Kasie Whitener (02:55):
That's a tremendous number of applicants for a couple of spots.
Orgul Ozturk (02:58):
And we do not use AI to review these things.
Kasie Whitener (03:00):
Right. So you all are going through and taking a look at each and every one saying, okay, this is, and some of them probably disqualify like right away. Like there's probably a few that you look at and you're like, yeah, that's just not gonna fly.
Orgul Ozturk (03:09):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (03:10):
Um, but these others are gonna be relatively even. And you mentioned quite a few of them are rookies. They're people who've just graduated, they've just finished their dissertation research. Like then their work experience doesn't really differentiate them. So no, it's, what are some of the factors that differentiate them?
Orgul Ozturk (03:23):
You look at publications and, uh, quality of such publications and the publications that they have. And you can, you don't necessarily come out with bunch of publications. Uh, the process is long, you know, over the five years you're not going to publish much. Um, we do look at working papers, the quality of it and the potential where they're gonna publish, uh, collaborations they have, if they had any grants, if they had any teaching experience Either as TAs or as independent instructors. Some of them do. And, um, we do look at the topics, um, of the work in addition to quality of the writing, contribution, et cetera. The econometrics and statistical techniques that they use, you wanna understand if they're going to be a good fit in what our department needs. At the end of the day, economics is a very big field. We all have our own specialties. And, you know, given our, uh, center, given our teaching needs, how can we pick the person that is going to, if there is a hole close that, uh, hole, close the gap?
Kasie Whitener (04:28):
Well, especially because this hiring process, it starts with the applications, then you guys start setting up visits. These people come on site, or no, the, second.
Orgul Ozturk (04:36):
There's other stuff in between.
Kasie Whitener (04:37):
What happens in between?
Orgul Ozturk (04:38):
Second stuff is, uh, we basically form this, uh, search committee and search committee. Um, we try to, um, make it so that everybody's getting a fair, um, you know, treatment. So every candidate is reviewed by two eyes, and then we submit all of our scores to our hiring chair who will normalize. That's where the geek comes in. And so, you know, everybody's rankings are equal. So we turn them into normal scores, normal distribution scores, and then sum them up. And then we order, uh, them in the rank they that we have for each of them and have a meeting to discuss, uh, top 160 or so.
Kasie Whitener (05:19):
Wow.
Orgul Ozturk (05:19):
To choose, um, for position about 20 people. We interview, uh, about 30 minutes interviews such each, pick that 30 each.
Kasie Whitener (05:28):
Just by Zoom?
Orgul Ozturk (05:29):
This, uh, since the pandemic has been just by Zoom in olden days, we used to go to, uh, our main conferences in January, very beginning of January. We are cheap. And that's the time where hotels are empty. Uh, but these days it's on Zoom. Uh, we don't, uh, sit in hotel rooms, uh, and interview 30 people in, you know, three days anymore Um, but, um, we have 30 minutes interviews with each candidate and ask them about, uh, what their research is about, where they see themselves in five years, and then kind of get at their teaching, uh, preferences, talk about our departments buy and sell job at the end.
Kasie Whitener (06:12):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (06:12):
And try to make the best impression we can. So when we invite them to a campus visit, they will say, yes, this is one of my top jobs. We had, uh, at least 30 people signal us. We have a signal component to our market as well. So candidates can pick two places among the places that they applied and say, you are for this reason, on top of my list, please consider me.
Kasie Whitener (06:35):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (06:36):
Um, we didn't even have a chance to consider all those 30 who signaled us. Usually you get about four signals this year.
Kasie Whitener (06:42):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (06:43):
It was even more. Wow.
Kasie Whitener (06:44):
Well, so that speaks to, I think, the reputation of the department and certainly the reputation of the school that 30 applicants said, you're one of my top two.
Orgul Ozturk (06:53):
Yeah.
Kasie Whitener (06:53):
Like, um, I really do wanna come here and be part of what you're doing at Carolina. Um, so that's awesome. But then the other part of it is, but
Orgul Ozturk (07:17):
I mean we try to, people sometimes, uh, also signal their safety schools. Not necessarily their ideal because, uh, you know, economists are always about strategizing.
Kasie Whitener (07:26):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (07:27):
So, um, you kind of need to also be able to distinguish what is the signal that is truly, Hey, you are my top school, versus Hey, I would love to come there. Uh, I just want you to, maybe you don't consider me because I'm, you may think that I'm too good. For you. Uh, but, uh, you'll be, uh, in my list of schools that I would go if you actually invite me.
Kasie Whitener (07:50):
Right. So it might be somebody who maybe is a little bit more well established or a little bit more, uh, distinguished.
Orgul Ozturk (07:56):
Yes.
Kasie Whitener (07:56):
And maybe, and we might think, well, actually, they'd probably be somewhere more like Cornell or Harvard or whatever. Yeah. But they go, well, actually I really do wanna get to Carolina.
Orgul Ozturk (08:03):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (08:04):
And be in Columbia in July.
Orgul Ozturk (08:06):
Yeah, of course.
Kasie Whitener (08:07):
Orgul Ozturk (08:12):
One of the candidates were was, for example, married to someone who grew up in Blythewood and.
Kasie Whitener (08:17):
Right. Right.
Orgul Ozturk (08:18):
If he doesn't give us that information, we're never gonna know. It's not in somebody's resume where their spouse is from.
Kasie Whitener (08:24):
Right. Sure. Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (08:25):
So that kind of information is something that you, uh, relay.
Kasie Whitener (08:31):
Right. This, this is a good fit. 'cause my wife's family is still there and, and we're familiar with the area. I gotcha.
Orgul Ozturk (08:35):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (08:36):
All right. We're gonna run a break. Um, we've just been talking about hiring, which is only one of the things that you did this fall. Uh, it's Dr. Orgul Ozturk here with Kasie on Moore Impact. Y'all don't go away. We'll be right back.
Kasie Whitener (08:58):
All right. Welcome back to Moore Impact. It is Tuesday morning in Kasie and Orgul here, breaking down this hiring process, which as we were talking about it on the break, Orle, I think that a lot of people who are maybe are listening, our regular folks here in Columbia, while the community in Columbia, South Carolina does a great job supporting the school in athletics, in, you know, theater and the fine arts and all these things. They may not sort of understand the inner workings of how long it takes to get into one of these academic roles. And as we were saying on the break, like I, I came in as a practitioner, as an adjunct instructor, did like one class at a time, and then I was like, Hey, I kind of dig this. I could do a little bit more. And it kind of, my career kind of grew from there to, but these positions we're talking about that folks are coming out of their dissertation process. They've, or they've already done some research, they've already worked somewhere else, and they are applying for tenure track roles, or they're applying for really what will be their long term at the least, I would think five, ten, maybe fifteen years.
Orgul Ozturk (09:54):
That's their hope because, um, you know, tenure track jobs, we have a five year, uh, period pretty much
Kasie Whitener (10:01):
Before they actually start apply for tenure.
Orgul Ozturk (10:03):
Yes. Before they can apply for tenure. I mean, they can go early, but that is the usually time that it takes, uh, for people to establish enough, uh, reputation scholarly work to be able to go for that promotion and tenure.
Kasie Whitener (10:16):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (10:17):
And, um, you want to be able to hire someone who is, is, is, you know, heard, it's a very tiring process. You invest in people. It's a costly process like any other hiring is. So you want to be able to choose people not only with what they have done so far, but what they have potential to do.
Kasie Whitener (10:35):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (10:35):
And you wanna be able to pick the right person who you can tenure. So, um, and every paper that you try to publish, it takes about three to five years to publish.
Kasie Whitener (10:45):
We talked about that. You were here one episode and we went through the whole process of how do people actually conduct the research? How does the research get adopted? How does it get published? Like you guys go back into the Moore Impact podcast, you'll see that episode where we really broke it down for what does that research piece look like? 'cause I think the people who are work outside of academia don't necessarily know.
Orgul Ozturk (11:02):
No.
Kasie Whitener (11:02):
And it's not just our school that goes through this process anytime, uh, not just the University of South Carolina or the Darla Moore School, but any academic institution is going to be specific about how long this process takes, and they're gonna try to vet these candidates. And they're really, so when you have a professor standing in the room, it's because other people, their peers, their colleagues have said, Hey, I think this person can contribute. They have something to offer.
Orgul Ozturk (11:25):
Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is, um, like you said, every, uh, every econ department in the country is going through this process right now, pretty much. And you have limited resources. You wanna put those resources into the highest potential, you know, um, person basically.
Kasie Whitener (11:41):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (11:42):
That you, among the ones that you are considering, uh, among the ones who consider you.
Kasie Whitener (11:47):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (11:48):
It's a matchmaking process. And, um, like any other dating, uh, since I'm an economist, I can talk like this, you know, dating or marriage, you find someone just good enough. Sometimes you're lucky and it is above that threshold.
Kasie Whitener (12:02):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (12:02):
But we are trying to basically assess the threshold and make good matches everybody that's right where they land. And that, you know, partnership that forms is stable over.
Kasie Whitener (12:13):
And the matches, like you mentioned the word fit, where we think about culturally, do we, do people get along with this person? Do they seem to enjoy being in the environment that we're all in together? But then also like, does their research match some of the stuff that we've been doing or compliment some of the stuff that we've been doing? Does their approach to the classroom match or compliment or do they, do we think they can bring something new to the table as far as that's concerned? And then of course there's the, are they willing to relocate and does the salary match, do the benefits match? Like, so there's just a lot of things to consider.
Orgul Ozturk (12:41):
There is a lot. There is a lot. I mean, you want someone, like you said, going to, um, be able to interact with people in a productive way, either scholarly, productive, or we do a lot of service together. You want someone who's also going to be a contributor on all those other dimensions and teaching. I'm not going to hire the same topic of research, teaching focus over and over again. We need to cover a lot of different types of classe. And you need someone to do that.
Kasie Whitener (13:07):
Yeah.
Orgul Ozturk (13:07):
With the best expertise fit, basically.
Kasie Whitener (13:09):
Let's talk about that because, uh, we've had students in here before where, um, some of our recent alumni and talk to them about reasons that they selected the Moore School. And a lot of times it's because they see the course catalog and they get excited about certain topics and the course catalog, then they get to the Moore School, and those courses never get offered. Um, and I think that's a complaint. We heard it when, um, when, uh, Powers was here. Dr. Powers was here about the finance department, of course, our entrepreneurship team, like anytime, I mean, we have just four classes in entrepreneurship, and we offer them every semester. But I mean, I think that there are students will be attracted to a particular topic, and then they'll come into the school and they'll be like, why didn't it get offered? And a lot of times it's, we don't have an expert who can teach it. We didn't get the enrollment that we're looking for, for whatever reason. Um, so filling these holes, like bringing in new faculty to try to get them to expand that course, uh, accessibility, I think is a really big deal too. Do any of your applicants ever, have they ever looked at our course offerings before and then say, Hey, I really do wanna teach this particular topic?
Orgul Ozturk (14:08):
Yeah, I mean, um, they do. I mean, we try to, in our advertisements, um, highlight certain things that are of particular interest to us. We say we are, for example, even in an open position, you will say it's open to all fields, but department has particular needs here and there.
Kasie Whitener (14:25):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (14:25):
And we are hoping to find someone who can teach this or that.
Kasie Whitener (14:28):
Right. And you mentioned the AI one.
Orgul Ozturk (14:30):
Yeah. And AI one, for example, we needed someone who's either topical ai, uh, researcher, meaning they're researching about AI. Or they're methodologically AI researcher who are, think about AI models, um, developing them and using them in their estimations, in their, uh, research. So, um, and then we need this person to be able to teach certain data science courses, um, and teach the students how to, you know, manipulate AI, think about, um, how to use ai, not just think about AI.
Kasie Whitener (15:06):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (15:06):
Uh, so, um, as a result, they do look and say, this is the type of class I'm thinking about. And we do ask them, if you were to design a class, uh, you know, what, will that be.
Kasie Whitener (15:18):
The economics of Taylor Swift?
Orgul Ozturk (15:20):
Kasie Whitener (15:22):
Easy. I mean, I'm not even economists, but I would 100%.
Orgul Ozturk (15:25):
We do later give kids, uh, kids.
Kasie Whitener (15:27):
Orgul Ozturk (15:28):
I'm used to talking about my junior faculty in this way. But, uh, our junior faculty, as they establish themselves, and when they get to a good spot for their research, they start thinking about developing courses. We have economics of, uh, board games right now. We offer to our honors college students, we have economics of Star Trek.
Kasie Whitener (15:46):
Yeah.
Orgul Ozturk (15:46):
And it, you know, because economics is everywhere and faculty wants to share their own passions.
Kasie Whitener (15:51):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (15:52):
And how it overlaps with their, you know, their professional passion. And it really creates great courses.
Kasie Whitener (15:59):
And you come across somebody who wants to do economics of entrepreneurship in any way. I would love to co-teach a class. The, um, the conversation we had, I had with a communications professor up at Furman on their podcast about Taylor Swift and I came at it from an, uh, an entrepreneurship side, and she came at it from a marketing communication side. And it was a great conversation. I think that, I don't know that it would've, I mean, it was a good hour podcast. I don't know if it would've been a good, you know, 16 week class. But when I think about that, like how do we find some opportunities to create really cool topics that students are interested in? And then do we turn those topics into like one time events, or do we turn them into some kind of like weekly seminar where it's like, Hey, if you show up every Monday night at seven o'clock, we're gonna have two professors from different parts of the business school talking about two really cool things. Right? And then we just say, and, and some of these conversations grow organically after all of us get into a conversation. I'm like, I too am interested in Star Trek. Could I come at it from a storytelling perspective? And wouldn't that be, you know, I'm not interested in Star Trek.
Orgul Ozturk (16:58):
Kasie Whitener (16:58):
But you said, I'm saying though, like, you know, there, there's an opportunity, I think in the Moore School to be creative in that way. And sometimes academia can get like, in our silos and forget that like, learning is a lot of fun and sharing our interests and our passions is a lot of fun.
Orgul Ozturk (17:12):
Exactly. And also being able to, at economics at times can come across as too abstract too quantitative. Uh, I mean, it is, but there is also a lot of applications that people, I don't think necessarily realize the connection between every decision they make daily and this higher level thinking about, you know.
Kasie Whitener (17:31):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (17:31):
With the governing principles of those decisions. So it is really nice to be able to show it in a very accessible way to people.
Kasie Whitener (17:39):
Yeah.
Orgul Ozturk (17:39):
And then ignite that passion. And they're like, okay, I can do it. I don't need to be a, you know, math genius to be able to do this. I can learn all that other things that I need. This is what I wanna study.
Kasie Whitener (17:50):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (17:51):
And that kind of, I think establishing that kind of pathways for people, that is priceless.
Kasie Whitener (17:56):
Yes.
Orgul Ozturk (17:57):
And that is the type of teaching that I think most of us wanna do if our hands weren't always tied with, at the end of the day, uh, we need to make this sustainable. We need to make it, um, you know, work. We cannot just do everything our heart's desire.
Kasie Whitener (18:11):
Right, Right, right. Well, and there's a standard, right? Of course. I mean, there's a sense of the required curriculum. If somebody comes out with an economics degree, the expectation is that they will have familiarity with this, you know, sort of standard set of topics. And sometimes you can introduce that to them through conversations about things like board games or Star Trek or Taylor Swift, right? But other times we just gotta get you the fundamentals. Like you just need that, uh, discipline knowledge before we start expanding into some of these app, uh, the applied pieces.
Orgul Ozturk (18:39):
And I think, um, we are establishing kind of more creative ways, um, within that standard curriculum, like these scholars programs we have that is to give students, um, after they established, uh, themselves within their core classes, after they built enough skills, Hey, these are partnerships that you can now use those.
Kasie Whitener (19:01):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (19:02):
Um, knowledge, use those skills and do research that you feel more connected to.
Kasie Whitener (19:07):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (19:08):
So I, I, our econ scholars had a, a showcase of their work Friday before last. And it was awesome.
Kasie Whitener (19:16):
Yeah.
Orgul Ozturk (19:16):
They were brilliant. Topics were exciting. And I, all the posters were, you know, there were crowd around them. It was very nice to see. And they were all lighting up when they were talking about the research they did.
Kasie Whitener (19:30):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (19:31):
And it is, uh, good for, I think I also saw some other younger, uh, fellow students watching them, watching class ahead and do these things, interesting things. And I can see they're excited. I wanna be an econ scholar too. And seeing the flexibility of the knowledge that they gather.
Kasie Whitener (19:49):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (19:50):
In this kind of a safe, uh, environment is also, uh, and we are working, uh, what I was trying to say is ways to make it happen, um, even when it's not always fun.
Kasie Whitener (20:01):
Yeah.
Orgul Ozturk (20:01):
For everyone all the time.
Kasie Whitener (20:03):
Well, you know how I am. I don't do it if it's not fun. But, but, but I think that when you mention the Scholars program, I wanna kind of like, help our listeners understand. So at the Moore School, every department has their set of scholars, and the scholars and the finance and the finance scholars do their extracurricular projects. Econ, econ scholars do their, the International business scholars do their, so that scholars group, it's almost like a club because it is extracurricular. They don't really get class credit for it.
Orgul Ozturk (20:29):
Well, ours do get credit.
Kasie Whitener (20:30):
Do you guys get class credit?
Orgul Ozturk (20:31):
It a research class? But,
Kasie Whitener (20:32):
And the, um, and the question is like, does it, where on your transcript does it show up? And it's really a matter of applying what they're learning in the classroom to real, you know, outside in the world. Projects that are brought to us a lot of times from the community.
Orgul Ozturk (20:44):
Um, you know, in a big state school, it is hard to make connections with faculty and kind of these extra, um, out of the classroom activities.Aren't as easy, uh, to establish. But I think we are in business school doing a great job doing so in every, uh, department. Having these creates that liberal arts kind of community, even everybody's connected with the professors. And the Outsiders. And they're also that link, uh, that makes us reach out to community.
Kasie Whitener (21:14):
It's very different than when I was in school in the nineties when, you know, you kind of went in, you did your classwork and that was pretty much it. Right? Um, but now there's so much extra and supplementary stuff to help for a full experience. Alright. This is Moore Impact. Kasie and Orgul we're breaking down really the fall semester. I, we'll be back right off the break. Don't go away.
Kasie Whitener (21:43):
Alright. Welcome back to Moore Impact Kasie and Orgul here. I always feel like when we, when you first sit down, it's like, what are we gonna talk about? I'm like, I don't even know why we bother to ask that question. 'cause we just always have so much to talk about. We started by talking about this hiring practice, which we know is stretching into the spring semester where you guys are gonna be planning on campus visits for some of your potential candidates, your higher ranked candidates. And then, um, we then we moved from that into like, okay, what do these people have to offer? And like, where are the specialty courses going? And then we talked about the Scholars program being complimentary to the in-classroom education for the economics students and all of this happening in the fall. You didn't even teach classes in the fall. What were you doing in the fall?
Orgul Ozturk (22:20):
I actually, so we talked about this beyond the classroom activities. I built two proposals to, um, kind of make this part of our EPIC center's, uh, you know, research.
Kasie Whitener (22:33):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (22:33):
So remember Cradle to Career.
Kasie Whitener (22:35):
Right. So this was, it was November 5th.
Orgul Ozturk (22:37):
No, this was October 3rd.
Kasie Whitener (22:39):
I know, but we talked about it on November 5th. So it was after Cradle to Career was the last time you were in the studio with me.
Orgul Ozturk (22:45):
Yes.
Kasie Whitener (22:45):
So we did talk all about Cradle to Career. Okay
Kasie Whitener (22:47):
So, but in that conference, I, my main goal was to showcase how, um, all these different economics research can have a comprehensive holistic view of workforce development, Cradle to Career.
Kasie Whitener (23:00):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (23:01):
And so I developed two, uh, proposals to build on that. And, uh, one of them, uh, is funded by our provost. Uh, and we are going to study how are beyond the classroom activities are paying off, are they actually contributing? We are spending a lot of, uh, money and time on making this kind of activities bigger part of our college education, and we wanna quantify to returns.
Kasie Whitener (23:27):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (23:28):
To those investments. So that's one thing I'm gonna do. And I'm also, um, working on another, uh, larger, uh, project not only about USC, but overall K through 12 education and how some of the programs we have, um, in our K through 12 system, how do they pan out?
Kasie Whitener (23:47):
Okay.
Orgul Ozturk (23:48):
So, uh, STEM education, for example, is of a particular interest. We invest all these resources. What are the optimal points of intervention? What programs work best? Um, what are the investments with the highest return basically within the education?
Kasie Whitener (24:04):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (24:04):
So, uh, those, the two things that I'm, uh, working on Epic is working on right now.
Kasie Whitener (24:08):
Right. Um, EPIC is the economic policy center.
Orgul Ozturk (24:11):
Yeah, exactly.
Kasie Whitener (24:12):
And, uh, it's, this is, you guys are in your second year, right? Yes. You launched last year in 2024. And really we're just trying to get your feet under you. Like what are we gonna do? What's our purpose? What's our goal? What are our deliverables gonna be? And so now we're really there. You're starting to put those deliverables out.
Orgul Ozturk (24:25):
Yes.
Kasie Whitener (24:26):
And, and meet those funders needs and things like that.
Orgul Ozturk (24:28):
Yeah and, uh, we are gonna do a Cradle to Career conference every year, bring in hopefully all these outputs this research are gonna produce. But, uh, also we are gonna have an event in spring. Uh, we wanna bring students, um, all those PhD students we just talked about.
Kasie Whitener (24:41):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (24:42):
We wanna, um, reach out to all the nearby schools, bring their students who are working in workforce related, uh, you know, topics. And have them get together, create a community network, present their research to our, uh, local agencies, all these, um, you know, state agencies.
Kasie Whitener (25:03):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (25:03):
Department of Education, department of Employment and Workforce, DSS, uh, for some childcare research. And I want everyone to hear more research, but also connect with this potential future employees and see what they are working on.
Kasie Whitener (25:20):
I just had a LinkedIn post about this, uh, yesterday or the day before about the research. And it was because of last Thursday, I went to the economic outlook forum that Joey Von Nessen and the research, uh, department held. And it was fascinating, but it also reminded me that like a lot of research is done kind of in a dark closet somewhere.
Orgul Ozturk (25:41):
Yes.
Kasie Whitener (25:41):
That never really sees the light of day. And I've always been so admiring, admiring of your goal to like get that research into the light so that people who are making these policy decisions, who are making these choices about how we spend our public money, I mean government money, how that money's gonna be allocated, really do know what works and what doesn't work. And we have specific key performance indicators that we can point to and say, Hey, we know this program delivers the results we're looking for. Let's keep it funded. Let's scale it if we can. Or Hey, we know this program does not work. Let's stop throwing a lot of money at it. It's clearly not going to do what we want it to do. We're gonna have to regroup. Right?
Orgul Ozturk (26:19):
Yeah, Or do these analysis prior to making decisions. So you can have, you know, this is A, this is B. A seems to work better in all those other contexts. You know, just let's invest in that. And we are working now with DSS, we are trying to evaluate some of the childcare scholarship programs and think about all the alternatives. We are bringing a lot of research from all over the country to kind of think about how we can make childcare more accessible, more affordable. And they're gonna evaluate several, uh, different dimensions and kind of create bunch of simulations for them. And the Department of Education too, you know, has been a long-term collaborator. I'm very happy. It wasn't only us reaching out, they were ready to receive and they are all wanting to do something like this. They didn't know who to reach out to, consulting companies, et cetera, offer these services.
Kasie Whitener (27:10):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (27:10):
But they're expensive.
Kasie Whitener (27:11):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (27:11):
And they don't always have the, our state's, um, goals as priority.
Kasie Whitener (27:17):
No. No, no. Yeah.
Orgul Ozturk (27:18):
They're just trying to profit, uh, out of, uh, these, uh, services, which is a fine goal as well. But here we are, we are trying to make this as best as it can be, as better as, uh, good as it can be, and resources that we contribute to our tax dollars spent in the most wise manner.
Kasie Whitener (27:37):
And these are resources that we've already invested in. Right. I mean, we've already invested in the University of South Carolina and the researchers there.
Orgul Ozturk (27:43):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (27:44):
Why would we invest in exactly, you know, third party providers when we already have, we have people who can do this work, we just have to ask them to do this work. Um, so I love that. I, and from the beginning, I know if you, if people go back and listen to the previous episodes that you and I have done together about EPIC, I like gush over how I love the approach of this particular center to bring that research out for people to take a look at. But I also like that, uh, when you are looking at the workforce dynamics, you are looking the Cradle to Career was the conversation about it because it was in Thursday's presentation. Lemme kinda go back and sort of frame this up. So people can sort of hear where my head is at. But in Thursday's presentation, um, one of the researchers was from Indeed, which is the online, you know, employment, um, provider. And so they, uh, they talked about how one of the, um, biggest fields of need is early childhood education. And yet on the other side of that is like the lowest return on investment for any career or any bachelor's degree is early childhood education. Like, if you go and, and you rack up $90,000 worth of student loan debt to be an early childhood educator, you're not going to pay that back. Like, that investment is not worth it. And so a lot of people are turned away from that career, turned away from that study because even though there are jobs available, you're not gonna be paid the amount that you need to be paid to be able to pay off your college loans. So now you guys get to come in and go, how do we make that degree more affordable? And how do we raise the, uh, salaries in that childhood education in that, in that early childhood care?
Orgul Ozturk (29:17):
So that is, uh, for that simulations that I was telling you that we are gonna do, uh, workforce side of things is one component. Definitely. Um, you know, how do you, turnover is a big issue in this sector.
Kasie Whitener (29:29):
So employee retention, recruiting.
Orgul Ozturk (29:31):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (29:32):
Yeah. All I mean, paid time off. Yeah.
Orgul Ozturk (29:35):
So, um, we are gonna, uh, one set of, uh, policies we are gonna evaluate all gonna be all about, um, do you, what about bonuses? How do we retain these workers? How do we, um, attract more people into this field?
Kasie Whitener (29:47):
Are they paid hourly wages? Are they offered benefits?
Orgul Ozturk (29:50):
Benefits? Yes. And also, you know, uh, this is, we want this, uh, workforce to be educated, uh, all these skills that we need. Um, and we need to, if it is not paying off, we need to subsidize it maybe because it is a need.
Kasie Whitener (30:07):
So well the question is, is it a bachelor's degree? Is it an associate's degree? Is it certifications?
Orgul Ozturk (30:11):
Yeah.
Kasie Whitener (30:12):
Can you have people that work? Can you build a career path where they start out with these certifications?
Orgul Ozturk (30:17):
And having a career path is another thing.
Kasie Whitener (30:18):
Career path.
Kasie Whitener (30:19):
It's not necessarily, you know, uh,
Kasie Whitener (30:20):
Like in nursing they have the same concept on the nursing side. Right. You might come in as a certified nursing assistant, right? So you went and you got your certificate, six week program at the community college. But then you get there and you decide, oh, I really wanna be an rn. So now you're gonna go get your two year associate degree. And then you go, wow, I can make a little bit more money if I had a bachelor's degree, let me go. And so there could be a career path similar to that.
Orgul Ozturk (30:41):
Yes.
Kasie Whitener (30:42):
In childhood care and childcare, but we just don't have it.
Orgul Ozturk (30:45):
Yeah. We need to make it attainable, affordable. And then there is these, you know, demand side people, uh, who are, um, there's also availability, of course. You know, how do we, uh, uh, choose the locations of these when there are none? How can we make, so make, so that there will be centers near people's homes, places?
Kasie Whitener (31:04):
How do we incentivize entrepreneurs to build those centers? Yeah. Gotcha. Yeah.
Orgul Ozturk (31:08):
I mean, regulations in childcare market, um, you know, some are necessary, but some can be quite, um,
Kasie Whitener (31:16):
Burdensome.
Orgul Ozturk (31:16):
Burdensome. Um, like in building, um, regulations, et cetera. So what are the, um, must haves and what are the ones that can be, you know, uh, we can just get rid of,
Kasie Whitener (31:29):
Or they may have been serve their own purpose in a particular time, but now they're archaic and they're outta date. Like let's remove them. So they're not creating barriers to entry.
Orgul Ozturk (31:36):
And, um, the other side is going to be about, uh, giving people resources they need, like scholarships, et cetera, so they can, uh, get the, uh, so we are gonna evaluate all different positive combinations.
Kasie Whitener (31:48):
Do you have questions around why people make the childcare choices they make? I mean, is it things like, um, the geographic location, like when my kid was in daycare, I put her at one next to my office.
Orgul Ozturk (31:58):
Yeah.
Kasie Whitener (31:58):
Because it was like two, but there was 30 miles from my house, but it was right next to my office. 'cause I was in my office every day.
Orgul Ozturk (32:04):
So one of my, uh, colleagues, Jessica, Dr. Jessica Brown studies, childcare markets.
Kasie Whitener (32:09):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (32:10):
So she does both the workforce side and the location and the choice, uh, parents are making, uh, not only to have or not to have childcare, but when they're going to have childcare where to have it.
Kasie Whitener (32:22):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (32:22):
Yeah. There is research on this as well, but the best optimal, uh, location of childcare close to work.
Kasie Whitener (32:27):
Sure. And the, that's the research that should be informing some of these policy decisions.
Orgul Ozturk (32:32):
Yeah, exactly.
Kasie Whitener (32:32):
Where people are like, Hey, we really wanna incentivize a childcare, you know, to be in this particular location. Well, let's go and take a look at what are the things we need to put in place to make that happen.
Orgul Ozturk (32:40):
And the other, uh, one of the other, um, kind of programs they're considering at DSS, uh, is like having employers have in the workplace care for their employees. Sure. And, uh, making it accessible, say maybe to grandparents as well at their, um, workplaces. I mean, of course all of these have positives and negatives. So our goal is to kind of, uh, identify cons and pros and evaluate and kind of provide a portfolio of policy decisions.
Kasie Whitener (33:10):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (33:10):
So the policymakers can make an informed decision.
Kasie Whitener (33:13):
One of the entrepreneurs we met at one of our events last year or the year before, they had started a health, uh, uh, childcare facility. It was their third one, and they were building it in a particular area. And they had, so they were aware of what the opportunity was, what the need was, and what they could expect from a revenue perspective. And that got us kind of thinking like, wow, if we had this understanding of, these are not even just childcare, but like these are the perfect parameters for entrepreneurs in healthcare and in childcare and in, you know, whatever other fields that we think we need people to build businesses in these spaces. And oh, by the way, entrepreneurs, here's a whole list of businesses that we need. So, because we have a lot of students that wanna be their own, they wanna be business owners, right?
Orgul Ozturk (33:57):
Yes.
Kasie Whitener (33:57):
But they don't have a magical idea to start a brand new business.
Orgul Ozturk (34:01):
And you don't need a new product. Sometimes the most obvious things are where we need the biggest
Kasie Whitener (34:05):
Exactly. Like we just, what do we need in our community? What do we need in our market already? And then creating this list, let's like publish it every year. Here's the list of the most needed businesses in South Carolina.
Orgul Ozturk (34:15):
I mean, yeah. I think like we are gonna do something like that, skill gaps
Kasie Whitener (34:18):
That would be helpful.
Orgul Ozturk (34:19):
And this can be the entrepreneurship gaps.
Kasie Whitener (34:21):
That could do it. All right. We're gonna run a break. We've got one more segment to go. Don't go away. It's Moore Impact. We'll be right back.
Kasie Whitener (34:35):
All right. We're back to Moore Impact. We're not gonna go down the childcare rabbit hole because I think there's a lot of, I still, I have so many questions. There's a lot of like questions and possibilities and ideating that could happen, but I'm like 100% not an expert in this space. So like, let's not eat up all of our airtime with that. Um, but here we're coming into the spring semester, so after you had this great event from, uh, Cradle to Career, and how were people, the policy makers who were there, how receptive were they to the work that you guys are doing? And did they bring you a list of like, Hey, by the way, we need all of these things too.
Orgul Ozturk (35:07):
Yeah, pretty much. I mean, um, right after that, this, uh, the DSS project I was telling you about, about childcare, actually, we were invited, uh, to a forum. Um, and this is Childcare Coalition. Um, and um, alongside me, there were two more economists from Department of Employment and Workforce. And, um, the goal was to build on that Cradle to Career. The DSS representatives who were in the meeting, they taught some of the things that we are thinking about talking about can be very applicable, can be very useful. So we are now making more and more of those connections. Definitely, um, excitement is still there and carries on and more talks are coming, more collaborations, more.
Kasie Whitener (35:53):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (35:54):
Agreements are coming. Um, so that it was, uh, the goal is achieved and, uh, we are going to have more of these events. But also, um, me and my colleague Jason, and you're another frequent, you know, flyer. I guess.
Kasie Whitener (36:09):
Jason, Debacker, and I'm sorry. But, uh, Jason and I, we break up for right now,
Orgul Ozturk (36:35):
I know. But we are taking over, um, the leadership of Scholar Strategy Network. Okay. Which is a national, you know, uh, we are gonna take the take over the, uh, Carolina, you know, South Carolina, uh, chapter. But it also created the synergy because a lot of the, what they wanna do, the connections, policy connections is what EPIC is trying to do. Location of us is perfect for this. So they saw that, you know, it's, uh, definitely there is more we can do if, um, epic took over that, uh, entity. So we are going to lead that one together. And I'm excited about what is, uh, coming from that dimension. So excitement was there. I knew it because that's why we built this center.
Kasie Whitener (37:18):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (37:19):
But it was good to see people come listen and then come back again afterwards, reach out. I loved what you did. Can we do this for us?
Kasie Whitener (37:28):
Yes.
Orgul Ozturk (37:28):
Can you do that for us? It was good.
Kasie Whitener (37:30):
Well, and I think, you know, all of this conversation around the events that we hold, the, and uh, when Audrey was here a couple weeks ago, she talked about, or Dr. Audrey Korsgaard talked about having an event related to AI coming up in the spring. And anytime that the Moore School tries to bring our scholars into one room and share the research that they've done, we then try to create an audience of people for whom that would be useful. Right? Like, so here's some people, whether they're business owners or policy makers or community organizations or government agencies, like bring them into the room, share with them, here's what we're finding, here's what we're learning, here's what we're working on. And oh, by the way, here's how we think it can help you do your job better. And I think it was the same at the economic outlook, uh, last Thursday, where, I mean, people go in there wanting to get a sense of, okay, where should I be placing my bets in 2026? What is the opportunity in front of us? What are the things we should be worried about? And I thought it was really interesting because Joey started his presentation with, um, uncertainty is the only thing that we're certain about, right? Like, there's just this tremendous uncertainty happening in 2025. And then this other book that I'm reading yesterday, I was reading it and it said, uncertainty is the enemy of prosperity. And I was like, oh, no,
Orgul Ozturk (39:32):
Yeah, yeah. No, um, actually it's, remember those econ scholars, one of the, uh, couple of the groups were working on this exact topic. One was in elementary school, one was in middle school setting. How do we make economics accessible and fun?
Kasie Whitener (39:46):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (39:47):
How do we integrate it in, uh, class materials? And so like, um, it is with games, it is with, um, little experiments. It is with, uh, role-playing exercises even. And they did develop, uh, ways, uh, and uh, next step is going to be, uh, some other set of scholars to carry it to the classroom setting.
Kasie Whitener (40:08):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (40:08):
At our partner schools. But, um, you know, economics topics, again, like you said, you may think of maybe when you think economics, you are thinking unemployment, monetary policy, et cetera.
Kasie Whitener (40:21):
The Fed.
Orgul Ozturk (40:21):
but economics, we define it as decision making under, uh, scarcity.
Kasie Whitener (40:27):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (40:27):
When your resources are scarce, where do you put, you know, how do you allocate? And that whole decision making process consider a lot of, uh, everyday topics like opportunity, cost. What is the thing that you give up when you do something? What is the thing that you didn't do? Because that is the true cost of anything.
Kasie Whitener (40:44):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (40:44):
Or externality. And how do you deal with externalities? When I do something, it creates a direct benefit or cost, but also it may at times have costs that I do not consider, uh, that I impose on others or benefits I create, but I don't factor into my decision. And that means you either overproduce something or under producee it, depending on the size of the, and the sign of the externality. And you know, thinking about all these make or knowing all these make you a better decision maker. Right. So, and these are not hard. These are not things that you need to teach with math. We can talk about apple orchards and bees and you know, how they create externalities for each other. And, um, just eating your ice cream, you're spending your money on ice cream and not getting that, I don't know, sandwich that you, that is an opportunity. Cause and, uh, if students can see this, uh, hey, everything I do is economics. I mean, you know, this is why I study economics is because I see it that way. I mean, it becomes, um, I think more accessible and more interesting suddenly to people. It's not some abstract thing that they never have to deal with. It is something always in their lives every day dealing with. Right.
Kasie Whitener (42:01):
I think, you know, I love that you put it that way because I don't think I really discovered a passion for economics until I recognized how much it affects everything I do. Right. Until I started to see, and then people would break it down into like some very simple things. Like everything has a trade off everybody. People do what they're incentivized to do, right? Yes. Exactly. It's like, exactly, okay, so I don't understand why this is happening in this way. And it's like, well, what are the incentives? And maybe that's gonna help us get it. And I think even in my management classes, we spend a lot of time talking about managerial decision making, but why, why do managers make the choices they make? Why do executives make the choices that they make? What are the incentives there? Why do our stockholders make their choices? It's because of the incentives there. And that's basic economic principle.
Orgul Ozturk (42:45):
Exactly. Exactly. And, um, anyways, I think people, when they realize this, they are gonna be interested in the research. It is, um, just our job to make it accessible. May it can be by inviting them over to listen our research or when and when we do. So making it so that you are speaking the same language.
Kasie Whitener (43:05):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (43:05):
It's not just some, you know, bunch of lingo, uh, specific, uh, terminology that you throw at them.
Kasie Whitener (43:11):
Right.
Orgul Ozturk (43:12):
Our job is to also make it digestible. Sure. So, um, I'm hoping to do, uh, under EPIC's umbrella, and more and more of these things happen, uh, uh, make, um, these connections, build these connections.
Kasie Whitener (43:26):
But that only happens if you get out of a room full of economists. Right? Because if all of you guys are talking to each other, then you can use that jargon in that conversation because you have, it creates shortcuts of course, in the same way that like a, a bunch of doctors and nurses are speaking to each other. They use that con that jargon for shortcuts. But then when regular people who don't study economics for a living, having a way to translate that so that those people can understand what you're talking about as well, it's so critical.
Orgul Ozturk (43:51):
And then experts aren't willing to do this or able to do this, who's going to step in?
Kasie Whitener (43:55):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (43:56):
Yeah. And then that's going to be, that's how the misinformation and or, you know,
Kasie Whitener (44:00):
You ask the question, who's going to step in? And the answer is people who don't know what they're talking about.
Orgul Ozturk (44:04):
Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (44:05):
Orgul Ozturk (44:05):
and who has no qualms about, you know, um, selling you something that is not right.
Kasie Whitener (44:10):
Or that have incentives to sell you course something that's wrong. Right?
Orgul Ozturk (44:14):
Exactly. Exactly.
Kasie Whitener (44:15):
Because it's, it does their, it it meets their needs or does their purposes. Yeah. You're not exactly right about that. Alright, so what's coming up in the spring? Give us a quick snapshot of what can we can look forward to?
Orgul Ozturk (44:25):
Alright. We know lot of research talks. Uh, we are going to have a lot of hiring talks. So beyond that, we are going to have Cradle to Career seminar series. It's all about, uh, workforce development, education, health, um, and, and labor market.
Kasie Whitener (44:38):
A seminar series. Does that mean multiple events? Are they all on Zoom? Are they?
Orgul Ozturk (44:41):
They're, they're, um, right now planning is in person. Uh, but, uh, if there's interest, we can make them zoom accessible as well. Uh, but it's going to be building around our regular seminar series, uh, just with this particular focus.
Kasie Whitener (44:54):
Okay.
Orgul Ozturk (44:54):
So they're gonna be Epic sponsored, and then we are going to have this, uh, symposium for our graduate students on our reading day, uh, inviting grad students all around nearby schools and creating them a platform where they share their research with not only researchers, but um, you know, agencies.
Kasie Whitener (45:13):
Sure.
Orgul Ozturk (45:13):
Policy makers. And we are hoping to also go to the State House several times, epic, SSN, that Scholar Strategy network, uh, collaboration, and talk to our, uh, lawmakers and see what they need, how we can help them, and, uh, think about, uh, the things that are bothering them, uh, with a scholarly perspective and provide tools for them.
Kasie Whitener (45:33):
Well, this is the second half of our legislative session. So Les, they did their first half in 2025. And they'll do their second half in 2026. So we still, we have seated lawmakers, uh, but of course a lot of 'em are gonna also be running for reelection in the fall. Yeah. Um, so there are some important decisions to be made and some important decisions to be ignored so that they won't negatively impact them in the fall. Thank you for being here, Orgul. I love it. Always. When you're here to visit. This has been Moore Impact. When you learn more, you know more, when you know more, you do more. Thanks for listening.