Season 2 Episode 34
Foreign Direct Investment with Visiting Fellow Ellen Lenny- Pessagno
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno was hosted in September as a Sonoco Visiting Fellow by the Folks Center for International Business. A former U.S. diplomat and Albemarle executive, she recently joined Veracity Worldwide, a leading global risk advisory firm specializing in critical minerals, the energy transition, and advanced technology.
With over 20 years of experience across Latin America and Europe, Ellen has deep expertise in international trade policy, sustainability, and government engagement. At Albemarle, she served as Global Vice President for External Affairs and Sustainability and as part of the Energy Storage (Lithium) leadership team, following her role as Country Manager in Chile.
A frequent speaker at international forums such as the UN Global Compact Leadership Summit, she was named one of the “100 Global Inspirational Women in Mining” (2020) and Executive of the Year by Chile’s Antofagasta Industrial Association (2021).
Topics include:
To learn more about Sonoco Visiting Fellows Program, click here.
To learn more about Ellen Lenny-Pessagno, click here.
Photo Courtesy: Folks Center
Dr. Kasie Whitener (00:04):
Good morning, welcome into Moore Impact. My name is Dr. Kasie Whitener, and I'm your host for our show that likes to bring the Darla Moore School of Business here into the studio in Columbia, South Carolina, and to our listeners on Make the Point radio.com to provide access to what's happening at the Darla Moore School of Business with our scholars, with our practitioners, and share the expertise that is, uh, you know, floating around over here. And that's what I have the pleasure of introducing you to today is expertise that we have captured into our orbit and brought in as a visiting scholar, Ellen Lenny Pessagno, a former US diplomat and Albemarle executive. Recently joined Veracity Worldwide, a consulting firm specializing in risk management, which is something we teach at the Moore School Market identification and entry, and in-country operations and Market Exit. So this is about foreign direct investment in companies going overseas to invest overseas. We're gonna have a lot to talk about as far as things like tariffs and global policy and world trade and things like that. Really looking forward to that. Lived and worked over 20 years in Latin America and Europe. So, welcome back to being stateside and I wanna learn a little bit more about your travels back and forth and what you find and what you think of Columbia. Welcome in Ellen. And also thanks to the Folk Center for International Business, who is your sponsor to be a visiting scholar here today, and of course to Amy Thompson and that crew over there. So, welcome Ellen.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (01:22):
Thank you, Kasie. I'm so excited to be here.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (01:23):
I'm glad you're here.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (01:25):
I'm so excited to be here.
Kasie Whitener (01:27):
Alright, so tell me, uh, you, as we were off the air, I said, Hey, you're in South Carolina and you said for the first time in 30 years, so, you know, we haven't changed much
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (01:35):
Well, it's my first time in, in Columbia for 30 years.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (01:38):
All right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (01:38):
And, um, you know, I've, I, the new building, uh, buildings at USC are just phenomenal. So I got here yesterday morning, I'll be here through Friday afternoon, and I'm looking forward to doing a little more exploration. But I have spent a lot of time in South Carolina, um, uh, because my daughter lives in Greenville, South Carolina. And, uh, just in general, you know, I live in Charlotte, uh, lived in Charlotte for two and a half years, uh,
Kasie Whitener (02:01):
So you're not too far away.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (02:02):
Oh, right. Next door. And so I've spent a lot of time in South Carolina and been really, um, excited to see all of the economic development going on in South Carolina.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (02:12):
Sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (02:12):
Uh, so as you know, um, in Albemarle um, uh, I focused on, um, um, producing Lithium. Um, which is a building block for so many things, uh, in our modern economy. And it was great to see. Um, I always cheered when South Carolina got a new investment.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (02:29):
Yes.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (02:30):
Uh, such as Redwood Materials, which is recycling batteries. And you know, the scout.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (02:34):
Yep.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (02:35):
Uh, uh, the scout investment.
Kasie Whitener (02:35):
That's it. That's where I live over in Blythewood. Yeah. That's the, uh, the Scout investment. Yeah. Um, tell, let me, uh, kind of just add to that piece. We are the fifth ranked state for foreign direct investment. We receive quite a bit of foreign direct investment. We have quite a few foreign national companies that are invested in South Carolina. It's a tremendous source of pride for us that we're able to, um, offer these opportunities for these companies to come in. And I love, love that you mentioned, the lithium, the batteries, the, the renewable energy space. Like, we're really moving strongly into that space too, from the leadership of our, uh, department of Commerce and the SC Nexus project. So it's exciting to think about all the things we're getting to be part of.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (03:11):
Yeah, absolutely. And with those investments come jobs.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (03:13):
Sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (03:14):
Right. Jobs in those companies, but not just jobs in those co in those companies, it's the, the multiplier effect. And so most investments will bring, uh, you know, it depends on, the investment will bring three to four times more jobs. So if you think about a scout, um, a scout, and it'd be interesting, they would have their own numbers, but, um, scout is gonna employ 4,000 people. If you can multiply that, that's another 12,000 jobs. You could look at BMW, for example. With their, you know, that's the largest, the BMW plant in Spartanburg is the largest plant that BMW has in the world. And I heard that from A BMW board member. Right, right. So I can say that with a lot of authority, uh, and it's growing and they're growing it, and the amount of jobs that are created outside of the walls of that plant are just amazing.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (04:00):
All the adjacent businesses and the suppliers that come up around them. And then even still, we were thinking about this in the, 'cause I live in Blythewood talking about, you know, childcare facilities and yoga studios and restaurants for lunch breaks, and all the other businesses that pop up around a major investment, like, uh, something that's got, you know, 4,000 employees in there. And so there's a lot of opportunity for Blythewood as a whole to grow, um, as this plant gets underway and, and, and starts to staff up.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (04:26):
That's right. Absolutely.
Kasie Whitener (04:28):
All right. So you spent two decades as a diplomat.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (04:30):
That's right.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (04:30):
Working in, uh, US embassies all over the world. Um, what was your main role, uh, or your, your main job, the thing that you did that, that, that occupied most of your time when you were in that senior commercial officer role?
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (04:43):
Yeah, so, you know, there's actually three foreign services, um, for the United States. The big one is the State Department that everybody knows about. It used to be about 14,000 foreign service officers. Couldn't tell you what the number is today. Um, and then you had the, uh, you have the Department of Commerce Foreign Service, and I worked for the Department of Commerce Foreign Service, 220 officers, um, in the last several years. Not sure, um, what what it is today as, as you know, government shrinks. But, uh, I focused on helping us companies export, um, to the markets where I was posted. And I helped, um, US companies, um, invest in those markets and also overcome issues in those markets. So it was very focused work. Uh, I enjoyed it. You know, I woke up every morning thinking I'm gonna help create jobs in the United States. Uh, and I had the bonus added bonus of being able to live in different cultures, which Sure. I found just so exciting and enriching.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (05:39):
That's the fascinating part for our students, is they get excited about being able to be immersed in another culture. And when you're going through university, when you're getting ready to start your career, you know, however, many years ago, did you have a sense that like a foreign market was the place for you that you were going to get this chance to live abroad?
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (05:56):
I absolutely wanted that since I was very young. I love to read and I love to read about different countries. I love to read historical fiction. So, you know, I just, I would dream about these places. I grew up in Lexington, Virginia, town of 7,500 people.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (06:10):
Where the Virginia Military Institute is.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (06:12):
That's right.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (06:13):
Yes.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (06:13):
In Washington and Lee University. And, um, I never really, but to answer your question, I never really knew if I would achieve it, right?
Dr. Kasie Whitener (06:19):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (06:19):
It was a big dream.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (06:20):
Sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (06:21):
It was a big dream, but I, I found a way to get there.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (06:23):
I think that's amazing, the Department of Commerce at the federal level, working to create easier avenues and pathways for companies to go overseas, not just exporting their products here, but are, are you working, did you work with importers as well?
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (06:37):
Uh, so we had to work with importers where I was posted because they're the sales channels. Sure. Right. So if you think about a company making a widget, um, in South Carolina, they need someone who's in, let's say it's for the industrial market. They need an industrial distributor in Argentina, in Chile, in Spain, um, that will reach out and actually, um, do the sales, um, service, service, the product, if that's necessary.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (07:00):
Sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (07:00):
So we worked with importers in that aspect. So it was a win-win, because that allowed an importer to grow their business as well too. But, um, you know, we were, we were definitely, um, it was all about the US economy.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (07:11):
Of course. Can you think of a particular example or particular country that you were in where you felt like, Hey, this gave a, a, maybe it looked like a good opportunity from the beginning, or maybe it was like, this might be a thing we're not really sure, but then it just, beyond your wildest dreams, this was like an incredibly successful thing that happened to a company that you were able to help make that relationship?
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (07:33):
You know, I did that every day.
Kasie Whitener (07:35):
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (07:38):
I mean, I mean, I remember a one trade mission we hosted in Argentina, and, um, there, there was a woman who carried around a tire. She had a handle on the tire, and, um, she sold tires. Okay. Uh, she manufactured tires and sold tires. And in that same trade mission we had, what is it called? It's like when they, it's candy bouquet or something?
Dr. Kasie Whitener (07:58):
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Sure. Where they said, and it looks like flowers, but it's actually made edible.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (08:02):
I don't, yeah, edible. It's, I don't remember the name.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (08:05):
Edible Arrangements.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (08:05):
Exactly. It's, it was the big one.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (08:07):
Sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (08:08):
The, the, and, um, she had started in her garage. She'd gotten support from the small business administration, open her business, and then the US Commercial Service was helping her go international. Uh, and so, you know, these companies pay, I don't know what it's the, the fee is now, maybe it's like a thousand dollars for, um, the teams overseas and the embassies to set up, you know, a day or two of appointments with potential distributors. So it's a very, uh, economic way to, um, go, go abroad, go international.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (08:36):
Nice. And facilitate it by our US government, which is great. Alright. It's, uh, Moore Impact, more with Ellen on the other side. We'll be right back.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (08:59):
Welcome back to More Impact. This is Kasie Whitener, and with me in our episode today in the studio is, um, Ellen Lenny Pessagno, who is, did I get that right? Pessagno?
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (09:10):
Pessagno. That's great, Kasie.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (09:10):
Ellen Lenny Pasano, who is a former US diplomat and worked with our, uh, US Department of Commerce at helping to facilitate commercial exchanges overseas for US-based companies. So if you are a South Carolina, uh, manufacturer and you wanna get your product into some of these overseas markets, in Ellen's case now, your jurisdiction, Latin America, Europe, were there specific countries that you focused on when you were working with the Department of Commerce?
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (09:38):
Yeah. That's a great question. So, um, you know, I was posted in five Spanish speaking countries. So I started in Argentina.
Kasie Whitener (09:44):
Speak fluent Spanish?
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (09:45):
Speak fluent Spanish.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (09:46):
Excellent.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (09:46):
Then moved on to Mexico. Um, from there I went to Spain, uh, then to Chile, and then a very short stint in Columbia. Uh, before, um, Albemarle the company that I ended up going to work for, um, offered me a role in Chile. So I moved back to Chile and ended up living there 11 years. So
Dr. Kasie Whitener (10:05):
What did you love about Chile?
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (10:06):
The weather's amazing.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (10:08):
I bet, I bet.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (10:09):
The weather's amazing. Uh, it's like, you know, southern California, so low humidity.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (10:14):
I hear the skiing is good in Chile as well.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (10:15):
Skiing is great. You know, it was 30 minutes from the house and the beach was like an hour and a half.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (10:20):
Oof. I love it. I love everything about that idea. All right. So let's talk a little bit about DOGE. Um, I think as you and I were talking a little bit off the air, there's this idea that there's too much government, that the government spending is too hard to track. That there's, uh, some obfuscation of government spending. What I mean by that is intentionally hiding the things that they're doing. And so, at the beginning of the year, this huge effort, this DOGE effort, which was meant to sort of pull back the curtains on government spending in places that were, uh, that was maybe unfairly manipulating markets, that was maybe about corruption, that was maybe about things that, um, were not what they said they were. And so the question that we prepared for you was, do you wanna comment on the DOGE effect on the federal government as it pertains to what you were doing at the US Commercial Service? Is, when we think about getting into these new markets, facilitating these kinds of deals, what do these DOGE efforts look like? And, uh, and, and what do you have to say about, what would you like to say about that?
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (11:14):
Yeah, I mean, I'd like to first start out by saying, I think we all agree as US citizens, we wanna pay less taxes.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (11:19):
Sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (11:19):
Right?
Dr. Kasie Whitener (11:19):
Sure, sure, sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (11:20):
So, you know, I'm all for that as well. Um, but, you know, the government has critical roles to play. Uh, and, um, one of that is protecting us. Another is to ensure that our economy continues to flourish. Um, and so, you know, I've been outta government for seven years, so this is more of a bird's eye view, but I've certainly heard, um, from, from different folks. And, um, you know, you had the first wave where people left voluntarily. Um, and that's great. Um, we probably lost some, some, some, uh, some brain trust there.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (11:52):
Sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (11:53):
Um, but, but that's normal. Right? You know, I worked in the private sector and people move around a lot.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (11:58):
Of course.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (11:58):
Uh, they move around a lot less in government.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (12:00):
That's expected.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (12:00):
So that in some ways, you know, let's say that's healthy. Um, there have also been rounds of layoffs, um, more broadly within the government where, um, I do believe we've lost decades of, of human capital that's been built up over time and in some really important areas. So when we think about, um, the folks that know, um, you talked, you know, international trade, tariffs, um, folks that understand, um, what it's like to, um, negotiate with a government, uh, another government on these issues, folks who are, are, are, are very, um, well versed in some of these critical sectors for us. Um, I've heard, um, many cases where, um, um, we've lost those people. They've simply been laid off. And so, um, you know, I, I would've liked to have seen, I think a lot of us would've liked to have seen a, um, a more analytical approach in terms of what roles are needed, um, and, and, and who are the top performers.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (13:00):
Sure, sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (13:00):
And let's keep those people, right?
Dr. Kasie Whitener (13:02):
Yeah, I mean, I think the, the critical piece here is these are relationships, right? And so when you're involved in the US commercial service, part of what you're doing is building relationships with commerce on the other side, right? Like with the people who are building commerce in their countries as well. And so you have this critical friendship, this relationship with the, your counterpart on the other side. And if, you know, somebody comes in and just says, sorry, we don't need you anymore, then who's gonna manage that relationship? And maybe it's not somebody that they trust. And now the advantages that we were receiving from that very good relationship that you had with your counterpart, they, that goes away.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (13:37):
That's right. Yeah. That's right.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (13:38):
Yeah. That's a real struggle. All right. So when it, the surgical piece of it, I think is what everybody was wishing we had seen was to go in and really reevaluate how.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (13:46):
that's right.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (13:46):
How do these systems operate? What are the required elements of the system? And then let's maintain the required elements, and then maybe get rid of some of nobody's saying we don't have to trim anything at all, uh, but like, let's maybe be a little bit more surgical about it.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (13:59):
That's right. And, you know, that takes longer than 30 days, 60 days, 90 days. Um, but to do it, well, you need to take some time.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (14:06):
Sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (14:07):
And, you know, the government gets criticized for taking his time sometimes, but I think this is one where, um, you know, uh, uh, the administration wouldn't have gotten those early headlines, but, um, I think it would've, the, the country would've been better served if they would've rolled that out more slowly.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (14:22):
Well they say slow government is a feature, not a bug. Right. With the idea that the intentional slowness of the government is to make sure they're doing the right things and moving in the right direction. It's just that we've had this like lava over decades, and there's not been any sort of stopping of the lava. And so now everybody feels overwhelmed by it. Like there just seems to be too much. That's just too big.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (14:42):
Yeah.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (14:43):
Um, when you were working in the commercial service, did you ever feel like that there were parts of your job or, or roles that you saw around you that were just unappreciated, that people didn't know that you wished you'd had more of a spotlight or, or transparency that, so that the people knew the good work you guys were doing?
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (14:59):
Uh, that happened a lot, you know, and it, um, uh, you know, feature being in government is budgets get cut.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (15:04):
Sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (15:05):
And, um, um, I always felt like the, the commercial service needed more funding, you know, with 220 officers, uh, versus 14,000 in the State Department. Um, and a very small, a civil service. Um, uh, I always felt like we could do a lot more with more resources. Um, but, you know, the thing is, you know, I said we were, we were, we were, um, lean and lean and mean.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (15:29):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (15:30):
More lean than mean. But, but, you know, it made us, it made us be very efficient and very focused on, okay, how will we have the greatest impact, uh, on the US economy?
Dr. Kasie Whitener (15:40):
And I was gonna say, so you're specifically focused on corporations, on companies and helping those companies.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (15:45):
Also, small and medium sized, small, medium-sized businesses.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (15:48):
Right. And helping them to build value creation that's in overseas markets. And that value creation, of course, translates here to bigger companies to, to helping them grow, stabilize, yeah. Employ more people in our state. So when we think about foreign direct investment, those companies coming to South Carolina and then reverse that, our companies being able to ship overseas, I mean, those trade relations are as much a security asset as anything the State Department could be doing, right?
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (16:14):
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And I think, you know, we actually supported well beyond, um, a company. So to give you an example, when I was posted in Spain, I was there in 2008 to 2012, I'm sure that everybody remembers the financial crisis of 2008 in the United States. Well, that reverberated across the world, and it hit Spain very hard because both the government and consumers were way over leveraged with debt. And so, um, the Spanish government had, um, years before that had promoted, um, the adoption of solar energy by, by guaranteeing how much they would pay for that solar energy. It was phenomenally successful. Um, so Spain became a leader in renewable energy, and then they had the expertise to develop renewable projects around the world. So it was fabulous for the country. But then the Spanish government said, through this crisis, we can't afford to pay that feed in tariff anymore. And, um, they, they proposed the feed in tariff that was so low that these solar farms were gonna have to close. Um, where was the US involvement? Certainly there was a, there were US business involved, but the California Teachers Pension, um, was heavily invested in these projects. We had many, many different, um, pensions from the United States for public service, public service workers who had invested in this because they believed in the Spanish government. So, um, I, I, um, developed a coalition of, um, other countries, uh, where we, we work to educate the Spanish government on the impacts of this. And the great news was that they did cut the feed in tariff, but not so much that the companies couldn't survive, that these plants couldn't continue to operate. So it's a great example of how, um, folks never knew that, you know, the California teachers were totally oblivious to you know, they might lose, um, um, that, those investments.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (18:02):
It's tremendous when we had the Folk Center. You guys always do such a great job, Amy. I know you're listening. You can do such a great job. Our, our last, uh, visiting scholar came from, uh, Japan, and she had the same conversation about the changes in the Japanese economy and how those changes affect Americans. And a, a big part of it is the retirement investments, and when our retirement investments are in overseas markets, when those things start to happen in these overseas markets, who's watching out for that to make sure that our investments aren't tanking? And it sounds like US commercial service is part of that saying, Hey, we see this, we see that this, it's going to happen in Spain. And by the way, we've got a lot of US investors that are going to be in trouble, specifically our, the teachers union investment. That's a big one. Um, we think about one of the ones that she brought up when, uh, we were talking about Japan was our, um, firefighters and, uh, emergency workers, their, in Florida, their investment in Japanese companies. And so I think people don't know that it's regular citizens whose 4 0 1 Ks and their IRAs and these kinds of things are finding these foreign investments. And if we're not, if the US government isn't kind of keeping an eye on that and, and making some, um, important decisions and having important meetings, then, then maybe we would, we would experience, you know, worse luck than we could.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (19:19):
Yeah. I, I mean, and just to be clear, I mean, the US government can't get involved in, in, in, in regular investments.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (19:24):
Right.
New Speaker (19:24):
But where, um, you know, the government has made a commitment, um, and then decides to renege on it. That's like a perfect, we can't get involved in, you know, private business to business deals, obviously.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (19:34):
Right, right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (19:35):
Um,
Dr. Kasie Whitener (19:36):
Alright. So let's talk about making the transition from federal government to the private sector. So you're working with Albemarle in Chile, where there's great skiing and wonderful beaches,
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (19:51):
Right. Right.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (19:51):
Okay. So tell us a little bit about Albemarle and how you moved out of federal and, and, uh, public sector into this private sector role.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (19:58):
Yeah. So, you know, I loved being a diplomat and I never thought that I would, that I would, um, leave that role. But I did it for 26 years. And so when I got a call, um, uh, from Albemarle to become their country manager in Chile, I knew it was the right thing to do. Um, uh, I had worked with them. I had helped the company, uh, triple their extraction rate of lithium while I was at the US Embassy. Um, so I knew the leadership team really well. And, um, you know, I was nervous about it though. Imagine being in government for all this time and, you know, wondering if I had the skills to be able to make this transition. And, you know, the thing I think that got me through was humility.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (20:39):
Oh, yeah.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (20:39):
Yeah.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (20:40):
So tell me a little bit more about that.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (20:41):
Well, so, um, you know, I had the skills I needed. I brought those with me, my leadership skills, my ability to, uh, be a strategic thinker, to analyze things, lead teams. But I had so much to learn. Um, and, um, what I discovered is, and this, you know, this is who I am, is I don't have to be the one who knows everything.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (21:02):
Nice.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (21:03):
Right, so I had a 500 person team in Chile, and, um, when they came to me with a problem, they were part of the solution as well too.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (21:10):
Sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (21:10):
So I asked lots of questions and I would say, look, I don't know much about this. Help me understand it. Um, and let's, let's, let's, let's work together to come up with the best way to approach this issue.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (21:20):
I'm finding a kindred spirit in you, Ellen. 'cause I have the exact same approach. I don't have to know everything, but I need to try to learn as much as I possibly can. It's Moore Impact. We'll be right back.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (21:47):
Welcome back into Moore Impact. Kasie here with Ellen Lenny Pessagno, and we've been talking a little bit about US Commercial Service, uh, being a diplomat, working with the federal government to create commercial opportunities for US-based companies overseas. And then your new role with Albemarle, which is a business itself that is working on some overseas that does overseas work. And that work directly impacts South Carolina as it's in lithium extraction. So Albemarle a good player in that space. And you're living in Charlotte now as part of that role, uh, working as their country supervisor. You're not living in Charlotte? Oh,
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (22:23):
No. I am living in Charlotte. I'm no longer with Albemarle, I'm with Veracity.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (22:27):
Veracity. Okay. So now you're with Veracity. All right. So talk us through the, the move from Albemarle to Veracity. Yeah.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (22:32):
So, um, I left Albemarle about a year ago and, uh, wanted to take some time off. So, uh, did a lot of international traveling, which I love. And, um, joined Veracity Worldwide, which is a, a firm that, um, provides consulting services, um, in, as you mentioned, risk management.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (22:51):
Sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (22:51):
Um, uh, really, um, uh, helping companies to look ahead 20, 30 years as they make massive investments to understand, um, you know, what some of the risks might be, how the world may change.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (23:03):
Is there a particular specialty? We think of management consultants as having, like, of course there's the expertise that you bring just with your experience in overseas markets, but is there a particular investment uh, a specialty that you're look at? Is it AI? Is it, um,
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (23:17):
Yeah. So, a lot
Kasie Whitener (23:19):
Raw materials.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (23:20):
A lot of mining.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (23:20):
Mining. Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (23:21):
A lot of mining.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (23:21):
Gotcha. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, and a huge opportunity in that space, I would think right now.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (23:27):
Absolutely. And if you think about, um, mining investments, um, you know, these are 40, 50 year projects and they're many billions of dollars.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (23:33):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (23:34):
That have to be invested.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (23:35):
Yeah. And, and.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (23:36):
So when you look at, you know, different, different investments throughout the world, you really need to understand, um, the political dynamics, the social context, and also the geopolitical context of not what's happening now, but what might happen in 10, 15, 20, 30 years down the road.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (23:52):
And some trends. And, and therefore where, where do you think the government's gonna move and how they're gonna move, and where do you think these different markets are gonna move and how they're gonna move. So.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (23:59):
That's right.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (24:00):
It's tremendously important work as we try to future cat especially as we think about our young people who are going into the job market, and what are those businesses gonna look like for them, but then also, what are our retirements look like and our investments, you know, the ones that we're making through our 401 Ks and our IRAs, and where are they gonna be earning and that sort of thing. And how many of us are gonna be set up for retirement, um, that actually pays off and that kind of thing too. So lots of being a fortune teller out there as a, as a management consultant, how did you get connected with the Darla Moore School of Business?
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (24:28):
You know, it's, it's a, it's a, it's a great story. Um, you know, when I was posted in Argentina, uh, I went to Wake Forest University undergrad, got a, um, BS in business administration, and then I got a master's in International Commerce and Policy from George Mason University.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (24:43):
Up in Virginia.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (24:43):
Yes. And, and then joined the Foreign Service. So I was, um, uh, in Argentina hosting these, uh, businesses, US businesses, meeting with them. And so many of them came from USC's Masters, uh, MBA and International Business.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (24:56):
Oh, that's great.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (24:57):
It was phenomenal. And there was a part of me that said, oh my gosh, I should have gone there.
Kasie Whitener (25:01):
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (25:06):
I mean, but, but at the same time, I was incredibly happy.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (25:09):
Of course, of course.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (25:09):
Being a US diplomat. So then fast forward, I think like 20 years, um, uh, you know, at the US Embassy in Chile. And, um, we had some interns show up from USC undergraduate program in international business. They were studying at the Chile, the University of Chile. They were phenomenal. These kids were so smart, so dedicated, and just really good people, fun people to be around. And so I asked my team, I said, look, let's, let's, let's develop a formal program with this program. The kids are coming down already, the students are coming down already. So we set up this program so that we got, um, resumes of students who were interested six months in advance. We interviewed them in advance. We had them do their paperwork, which can take a considerable amount of time in advance, and in most cases, they would start working for us before their classes even started.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (25:58):
Wow.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (25:58):
So as soon as they hit the ground, they were, they were working with us. And it was such a, um, a win-win. The students got so much out of it.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (26:05):
Sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (26:06):
Um, and they were there helping these small and medium sized businesses and, and, and, and, and the other work that we did supporting us on it. So it was, it was great. And then fast forward, um, to, you mentioned Amy Thompson. Um, who's the director of the Folks Center for International Business. She reached out to me last year. And, um, we started a discussion about, um, uh, whether I should, um, apply to be a Sunoco, uh, visiting professor, a visiting fellow. And so, um, I filled out the application and was accepted. And so here I am today.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (26:36):
So this is, uh, great, because I think, uh, we, I, I talked to a lot of folks that after they finished their undergrad and their MBA and they go, I really just wanna be back in front of the classroom. I want to teach the students what I know. I want them to know what I know, uh, because I didn't know any of it
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (27:08):
Well, yesterday I spoke, um, to one of the MBA, um, classes. And, um, they were, it was phenomenal. They were so engaged. There was, we had an Oxford style debate led by the professor, Dr. B at the end of, at the end of the class. And then I, I, I stayed for another hour and talked to five of the students about the foreign service.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (27:26):
Oh, that's great.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (27:26):
I was, I was, I was really excited to see, um, how many of those folks were interested in the foreign service. Um, I'll also be teaching on risk management. Um, in a risk and a financial course. Um, I'll be teaching in your classes as well.
Kasie Whitener (27:39):
Yep. International strategy in my classes.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (27:41):
Yep. Really looking forward to that. Um, teaching in a sustainability class as well. Uh, and, um, I have a big emphasis on critical minerals on educating the students on the importance of critical minerals, uh, uh, extraction processing, and, uh, the whole supply chains that are required because this century and the following centuries are, are built on, are based on our access to these critical minerals. Right.
Kasie Whitener (28:08):
When I think about the, uh, the third class I'm having you, um, come and speak in as my entrepreneurship class, and their focus this semester is on renewable energy, the energy grid, grid resilience. Right. The idea of creating, generating enough power to be able to, uh, power well, I mean, we think about just even the Scout investment here in Columbia, in, in Blythewood. You know, there are tremendous, uh, requirements of our grid and our grid not quite ready to be able to meet the needs of, of incoming businesses. And so that's their focus is to look at what are the entrepreneurial opportunities in that particular space. And I've been like shoving all these energy podcasts, sat them and trying to get them to like, understand what we mean when we talk about grid resilience and what we need mean by this. So I can't wait for you to come in and talk about these minerals and the access to these minerals, because that has a lot to do with the battery technology and the huge investment that SC Nexus is making in our battery center here at the University of South Carolina. So just access to that in general, this is gonna be a great conversation.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (29:12):
Yeah. And you know, the other thing is, of course, with AI, which is also very important, um, for our economy, for, for this century. And to come, um, has, is, is a massive consumer of energy. And, um, you know, if you think about distributed energy through renewable energy with battery backup. Um, which is, which are lithium ion batteries, you know, that's a great solution. Um, and, and is less stressful on the grid.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (29:37):
And you mentioned Redwood, uh, down in the low country before. They're a battery recycling organization. And, um, one of my students last semester in my strategic management class, one of the groups did that company as their case study. And so they did a deep dive into who they are and what they do and why they do it, and who they do it for, and how they generate, um, income and how they create value. And everybody in the room was just kinda like, I had no idea that anything like this even existed. And then I felt bad. 'cause I thought we're at the end of the semester, we could have been working on this all semester long talking about this particular space and opportunity for South Carolina specifically. Um, it's something that in our Department of Commerce, they sort of saw, Hey, there's this opportunity to, to make this big investment and something that's gonna pay off and, and, you know, for a long period of time.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (30:20):
Absolutely. Absolutely. And that helps with our security of supply of critical minerals, because if you can reprocess the batteries and have the industrial capability to reprocess those into battery grade minerals, um, you don't have to mine as much.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (30:33):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (30:34):
Right. But if we don't have that capability, all of the, the, the black mass that, um, you can, you can break down the battery, it becomes a black mass with all sorts of, um, very valuable minerals inside, it will be shipped to China, um, and reprocess there.
Kasie Whitener (30:50):
Right. So reprocessing being a, an entrepreneurial opportunity here. Right. So,
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (30:55):
Well, uh, would you consider that we're talking about, uh, no, these are billion dollar investments.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (30:59):
Okay.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (30:59):
Yeah.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (31:05):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (31:06):
Collection of batteries, um, I mean, there's always, there's always, uh, space for entrepreneurship. Um, always space for small and medium sized businesses as well too.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (31:15):
Sure. Sure. Um, curious about our, uh, as a state right? And the investments that we make from the government side, these, how, how much of this business, how much of the future in this business, um, is going to require government intervention, government participation, government partnership as we look at this particular space? I mean, can you.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (31:36):
Yeah.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (31:36):
Estimate kind of what does that role look like for government?
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (31:38):
Yeah. So, um, you know, I think, and, um, I'll be speaking later on at the, at the World Affairs Council and, um, you know, we, we used to mine, um, quite a bit. We used to process, um, critical minerals in the United States. And over the last 30 years, we just decided to get out of that business. It was more cost effective to do it in other markets. Most of that migrated to China. And so, um, what we've seen is that, you know, with the, with the trade war between XI and, and Trump, is that, um, um, uh, China decided to restrict even further some of the rare earth, which meant that, um, ev uh, EV plants were literally stopped, um, in the US and in Europe. But it's also, I mean, uh, they also stopped magnets, which are really critical for also internal combustion engine vehicles as well as for many defense applications.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (32:30):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (32:30):
And so, um, we are too dependent on China right now. Now why hasn't, why haven't these investments been happening in the United States? Uh, when, when the IRA came out, there were some, a great plan in place, um, but the Chinese actually did price manipulation on these critical minerals. And they're at such low prices today that a private sector company, um, in, in the West, including in, in the EU, would, it would be nearly impossible to make these massive investments. And so, um, Trump also, um, is taking some very positive steps, um, to provide government support. Um, I had a question from one of the, one of the MBA students yesterday, but, you know, we don't want government to spend more money. We don't want government to be involved in the private sector. We're talking about small amounts of money. Um, uh, Trump has pledged $8 billion, which may sound like a lot, but it is, it is a tiny, tiny, tiny amount. It would be 0.0001%, maybe.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (33:26):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (33:26):
Of the budget. So it, it's very, there's ways to do provide support like price guarantees to counteract China's, um, uh, uh, pushing the price down. So 10 years from now, when your plan is up and running five years from now, we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll guarantee that you'll get this price. But, and what you'll probably see happens is the government will make money. Because the demand is gonna increase. And so they will also share in the profit.
Kasie Whitener (33:52):
All right. I wanna unpack that just a little bit further. 'cause I, I think, uh, yeah, we need to unpack that further. We're gonna go to break on the other side, Kasie and Ellen gonna get even deeper into the weeds. We'll be right back.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (34:21):
Welcome back to Moore Impact. Final segment of the show. Kasie here, with Ellen Lenny- Pessagno. We've been talking about, uh, foreign trade. We've been talking about US commercial services, and just now in our last segment, we're starting to get into the weeds about some of the decisions that are being made by the current administration that create investments in strategic markets and specifically the, uh, the rare minerals markets, which are we, a lot of our technology dependent upon these rare minerals and access to those minerals. And when those markets were being manipulated by China and the prices changing in that way, um, we were seeing our companies divest from those spaces. And now with our government getting more engaged and trying to, um, make strategic changes, it we're encouraging more investment in those markets. So tell the people what you were telling me at the break in terms of like what we're seeing with the Department of Defense.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (35:16):
Yeah. So I mean, just to take one step back on rare earths, um, there, there are 17 rare earths, and we're talking about the rare earth that are important for magnets that are used in defense. They're used in vehicles, um, and, and lots of advanced tech technology. So, um, we were rare earth miners MP materials, um, was a rare earth miner out in Nevada. Uh, it closed down. And the majority of the rare earth extraction today and processing like 95% of rare earth processing is done in China.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (35:48):
So let's, where are the rare earth? Where are they, where are the they located? Where are these minerals located?
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (35:55):
So, um, they're in China in the case of MP materials there, there in Nevada. Right.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (36:00):
Okay, so, so we do have some in our stateside stuff.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (36:03):
Right.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (36:03):
Okay.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (36:03):
And, and so MP materials was shuttered.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (36:06):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (36:06):
It was actually opened, again, there's a Chinese investment in there. Right. Um, and then when, when China started impacting the price of rare earth minerals, um, then these businesses become, a company like that becomes financially unviable.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (36:21):
Okay.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (36:22):
Right. And that's the way China keeps its choke hold on the market. Um, and so what, uh, what, um, what, uh, the Trump administration has done is the Department of Defense has invested equity in, in equity in MP materials, $400 million. They're the largest shareholder today of MP materials. What does that do? That allows MP materials to continue to extract minerals
Dr. Kasie Whitener (36:46):
From our local Nevada stuff.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (36:48):
That's right.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (36:49):
Okay.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (36:49):
That's right. And then, um, they are gonna take it one step further, which is the processing. You have to be able to process it in country.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (36:56):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (36:56):
'cause if not, it goes to China.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (36:57):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (36:57):
So we don't, we don't, we don't, uh, get it anything there. So, um, um, so the, this will allow also MP materials to build a processing facility in the United States. The other thing that, that the DOD did is guarantee at what price they will purchase the finished product.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (37:15):
Okay.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (37:15):
That's really important. When you've got China, um, pushing down the price, this makes the business viable. Now, one of the things you said is, but people don't want the government to be like all in on these investments.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (37:25):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (37:25):
I think this is a great example because, um, um, apple has, since now that Apple sees, they've got viable company that can, that can, uh, produce these magnets, um, in the United States, they also, um, provided, um, MP materials with a contract. It's a take or pay, which means they will purchase it, whether or not they need it.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (37:46):
Okay.
New Speaker (37:47):
Um, I don't know if there was a guaranteed floor price, but I would imagine that there is. And so there you see, um, an investment from the US government, um, uh, allowing the private sector to actually, um, count on, um, these products being there and, and coming in.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (38:03):
So let me unpack that really quickly. Uh, so our, the Department of Defense decides to invest in this company, MP materials, MP materials going to extract these,
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (38:13):
They already are the
Dr. Kasie Whitener (38:14):
Rare earths.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (38:14):
Yes. Yeah. They already are.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (38:15):
And then they're going to process them here in the United States. And because of the strength of their DOD contract, which is a guaranteed price, that the DOD will pay for these materials to keep MP materials profitable, then Apple says, Hey, well now we know MP materials is not gonna fail. We will go in and we'll, we'll also buy from MP materials as well.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (38:34):
Absolutely. Okay.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (38:35):
Just wanna make sure I got that right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (38:36):
And the interesting thing is, on the upside, there's an upside for the DOD. So, um, the rare earth's market is gonna continue to grow. Uh, the price has to go up at some point. Uh, well, you know, it depends on how long China wants to keep it down and lose money.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (38:48):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (38:49):
Um, but, uh, uh, if the price point is above this floor price, then the Department of Defense shares in that profit.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (38:57):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (38:57):
Along with MP materials.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (38:58):
Because they're an investor in MP materials.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (39:00):
That's right.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (39:00):
Right. And they'll start to reap the benefits of that.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (39:02):
But even more than being a a, a shareholder, contractually, they're gonna get a piece of that sale.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (39:07):
Right.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (39:08):
All right. And we think about this, and you mentioned it, the, there's been bailouts in other markets before we saw it happen in the automakers, uh, with the auto industry. It's happened with banking in 2008 after the financial crisis. So in times when companies need help and the federal government steps in and brokers these deals, creates these deals to help these companies, and then when the companies start to become profitable, the federal government receives those profits or, or earns the benefits from that.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (39:33):
That's right. But I, I don't think this is a, this is a story about saving companies. 'cause the companies simply aren't here.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (39:40):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (39:40):
It needs to be more about, um, supporting the, the business case so that these companies, um, can actually begin projects.
Kasie Whitener (39:48):
Here in the United States.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (39:50):
Here in the United States.
Kasie Whitener (39:51):
For the minerals specifically.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (39:52):
That's right.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (39:52):
For that particular industry.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (39:53):
That's right.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (39:54):
Okay.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (39:54):
That's right. And it, and really, it, it, we're talking about, I've been focusing on critical minerals and their processing, but what does that lead to? That leads to making products, and it's also the ability to make those products here.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (40:04):
Sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (40:04):
Um, you know, I know that folks, uh, either love or hate EVs, but one thing that I wanna make clear is that, um, the modern technology depends on these, uh, batteries. Lithium ion batteries. It's unlikely that the, the, that the chemistry's gonna change, um, in, in the next 40 or 50 years. So if, you know, if we want, our next mode of transportation is gonna be like drones, human sized drones.They already exist.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (40:31):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (40:32):
So we need to make sure that we are at the forefront of these technologies. And the only way we can do that is to make sure that we have the capabilities in country, to build, to build these materials.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (40:46):
And it creates,
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (40:47):
So it's not about EVs, don't get focused on EVs. It is what comes next. Right?
Dr. Kasie Whitener (40:52):
Right. Right. I think the, and again, I think everybody gets a little bit nervous about government invention, intervention in what we consider to be markets, right. What we consider to be, uh, what ought to be in our idealistic mind commercial investments. So what is the government doing with taxpayer dollars getting involved in commercial investments? And the question is, there's a level of partnership between the two when you have that government guarantee, then the commercial side, uh, you know, apple feels more confident in investing in a company that maybe, or, or, you know, sourcing from a company that they wouldn't have otherwise sourced from. Um, so it creates kind of a third party validation. The government investment creates a third party validation for them.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (41:34):
That's right. And again, we're talking about very small investments. Very small investments on the grand scale of things, on the grand scale of things.
Kasie Whitener (41:40):
So you're gonna be speaking at the Columbia World Affairs Council luncheon this afternoon. You mentioned that a minute ago. The topic is securing critical minerals, navigating geopolitics policy and community dynamics for a resilient supply chain. Could you put more
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (42:10):
Yeah. So, uh, you know, I already mentioned it a little bit when we started talking about MP materials and about the fact that China has a choke hold.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (42:16):
Sure.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (42:17):
On, um, these critical minerals. So, um, you know, I think we're only gonna continue to see, um, um, issues between the United States and China. And, um, and, and we need, we do need to have our own, um, uh, innovation and, and infrastructure. Uh, so it's not easy. Um, it will require some government support. Um, and, and we really need, um, we need to be building more batteries here in the United States as well too, right? So the critical minerals enable those batteries to be built. Um, and, uh, the Biden administration, um, had a comprehensive package supporting this, um, South Carolina and the whole Southeast, um, had lots of investments announced. Um, the, the Trump administration, as I mentioned, has, has done some very positive things like the investment in, in MP materials. But, um, they've also done some things to ratchet back the IRA. Um, and, you know, of course I think everyone knows the $7500 consumer subsidy to buy EVs is going away. Um, so that impacts demand. Um, there were also some things done, um, that will, that, that impact those benefits that Biden had had set up. And so unfortunately, I think you're gonna see some of these investments are not gonna happen. I'm really excited to see that Scout is still going forward, but we are hearing of cancellations. Um, you know, AESC, um, was gonna build batteries in South Carolina. They've put that on hold, um, due to as they, as they put it in their press release, uncertainty around tariffs and other, um, policies. Um, and so, you know, I really want people to understand, as I mentioned earlier, this is not about electric vehicles. This is about having the, the capabilities for this century, um, for, you know, drones, um, all the military applications that we need, our humanoid robots that we're gonna have in our, our homes probably one day.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (44:20):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (44:21):
Um, and, uh, you know, we'll be, we'll be in traveling around in human sized drones. Uh, you know, there's, there's pilots that are going on already, so we don't have to worry as much about the, about the traffic on the ground, but a little bit more about air traffic.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (44:34):
Right.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (44:55):
Yeah, I mean, I think the, the human capital component, um, getting
Dr. Kasie Whitener (45:00):
People trained up able for the workforce.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (45:01):
Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. So, um, you know, uh, if we're gonna do the mining, we need more mining engineers. Um, if we can access the critical minerals from, uh, friendly countries, then we don't need to do the mining. Then we need to focus on the, the, the processing of these minerals. Right. Um, we need lots of chemical engineers. I think we're pretty good in that area, but, um, uh, um, it's automation.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (45:27):
Yeah.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (45:28):
Automation is really important. Right.
Dr. Kasie Whitener (45:31):
Making things easier.
Ellen Lenny-Pessagno (45:32):
And I will say that China has, um, they are the innovators in all of the automation related to critical minerals processing.
Kasie Whitener (45:39):
Thank you so much for being here, Ellen Lenny- Pessagno. This has been Moore Impact. When you learn more, you know more, when you know more, you do more. Thanks for listening.