Season 2 Episode 36
From Classroom to Career: Mastering the Job Search
Kacie Ingram is the Undergraduate Career Services Manager in the Office of Career Management at the University of South Carolina’s Darla Moore School of Business, where she coaches management and marketing students. With over a decade of retail management experience, as well as entrepreneurial and teaching roles, she founded Complete Confidence in 2012 as a career coaching and personal branding business. Since 2014, she has taught Business Careers in a Global Economy and is active in the Professional Association of Résumé Writers & Career Coaches and the National Association of Colleges and Employers. Ingram holds B.S. and master’s degrees in retail from the University of South Carolina.
The Office of Career Management (OCM) connects employers with this talent, supporting campus visits, classroom engagements, information sessions, and registration for the Spring and Fall Business EXPO career fairs. For students, the OCM offers career counseling, résumé reviews, interview preparation, and other resources to guide their transition from student to professional
Topics include:
To learn more about the Office of Career Management, click here.
To learn more about Darla Moore School of Business, click here.
Photo Courtesy: Office of Career Management
Kasie Whitener (00:04):
Good morning, welcome into Moore Impact, Kasie Whitener here. This is our show from the Darla Moore School of Business, where we like to bring our scholars and practitioners in from the Green Street location to the studio here on Millwood Avenue. And share with our listeners on 100.7 The Point makethe pointradio.com, and of course, the extension to our podcast listeners on Moore Impact, what's going on at the Darla Moore School of Business, and how things are working for our students, for our faculty, for our staff, uh, how we're moving forward in the world and making an impact on South Carolina. With me today, Kacie Ingram, who works with the Office of Career Management, we're gonna talk a little bit about AI and hiring. We're gonna talk about how we help our students position themselves for careers. We're gonna talk about really one of the biggest metrics for college, for higher education is that job placement mechanism, that, that job placement metric. And so we wanna talk about how we do such a great job with that at the Moore School and the way the office of career Management is, uh, positioned to help our students and to help our faculty get those students in the right place. But first I wanna learn more about Kacie Ingram. So Kacie, you're a two time graduate of the University of South Carolina. First of all, I'll just say welcome so you can actually speak. I'll stop talking.
Kasie Whitener (01:09):
Hi. Thank you for having me.
Kasie Whitener (01:11):
Kasie and Kacie on the radio, which is awesome. Um, so tell me just a little bit about you. You're a two time grad at the University of South Carolina. How did you get to Columbia? How did this unfold for you being a student, a grad student, and then now, uh, working with the Office of Career Management?
Kasie Whitener (01:24):
Well, I am originally from South Carolina, small town. So when I moved to Columbia, it felt huge for all of five minutes.
Kasie Whitener (01:45):
That's right. We met doing networking at a, in the greater Columbia ecosystem of entrepreneurs. Yeah.
Kasie Whitener (01:51):
Yep. So, um, I became a, essentially a life coach. I got a certification through that. And then through networking, the same organization found out about an opportunity to teach at the Darla Moore School of Business and interviewed and what they say. The rest is history.
Kasie Whitener (02:05):
Yes, yes. As they say, the rest is history. Tell us about the classes that you teach.
Kasie Whitener (02:09):
So it's a required course. It's one credit hour and an eight week timeframe. So we are able to do two, if you will, um, within a traditional semester. But I like to refer to it as a professional development and career tools class.
Kasie Whitener (02:23):
Okay.
Kasie Whitener (02:24):
And we do everything from let's get those documents ready to start the job search process all the way through negotiations
Kasie Whitener (02:31):
And what's the name of the class?
Kasie Whitener (02:34):
Careers, Global Careers and a Business Economy.
Kasie Whitener (02:37):
Global Careers and a Business Economy, one credit class, helping our students to figure out what does that career trajectory gonna look like? How do I get in the game, basically. Right. And some of the things that you guys work on are things like their LinkedIn profiles, their resumes, helping them to find internships, things like that. Tell us a little bit more about the class and who takes it too, by the way.
Kasie Whitener (02:55):
That's a great question. So I just started a new section, well, two technically yesterday, and it's primarily geared towards sophomores to catch them right as they're declaring majors when they're starting to take their first classes related to those functional majors. And most of the time have not done a lot with their career, their resume since senior year of high school. However, we do have some juniors to take the class and occasionally a few seniors that will take it, but ultimately just getting them started with the resume and then everything builds from that because it is the foundation.
Kasie Whitener (03:29):
Yeah. And thinking about how do they, how do they deliver a message of, this is my competence, right? These are the, this is the experience that I have. These are the classes that I've taken. These are the things that I've been able to do. Even group projects and things like that that show up on that resume. Students are often surprised by how many things they've actually done. So a lot of times I'll see resumes that they come to me and I'm like, yeah, but didn't you do this and that and that, and that. Oh yeah, I did. And like, all of a sudden that resume starts to like get bigger and bigger. They're like, I didn't realize I'd done all these things. You know? Um, so tell, tell us, these are sophomores. They're, they haven't yet maybe declared their major. They might know kind of where they want to go. But, um, what does it look like or what kind of exploratory exercises are you doing in the class to help them figure out what their career path should be?
Kacie Ingram (04:09):
Well, once we get the resume secured, and it is the, as I mentioned, the foundation. So we spend a lot of time, if you will, in and, and out of the classroom going over it, updating it, and then using that tool to further, you know, with their LinkedIn profile and things of that nature. But as far as the, um, students are concerned, we do a couple different things. So we use the Berkman assessment that's, um, essentially in place of our textbook. And that's a foundation as well for the class, because we're able to use those specific reports that are pulled from that in relation to job search. What are my strengths? What are my opportunities? How am I going to succeed in the job search? How am I gonna struggle? And what are some things I need to do to proactively try to prevent those things from happening? And so, as far as exercises, a lot of classes, we'll start with them pulling up their individual reports. And usually the topics are related to what will be discussing that day in the class. So we'll start with them doing a little self-reflection. Um, we do activities, whether it's like a pair and share or, you know, stand up or sit down based on, you know, does this apply to you? And essentially those things are tied into that Birkman report. And then outside of that, they do live mock interviews in the class based on some activities that they do. We do another interview process for the autonomous interviews that most companies use, like a HireVue. So we're able to use big interview for that process. And then some of them, I've been told multiple times that I've never had to do an interview like this. I hated it.
Kasie Whitener (05:45):
Kacie Ingram (05:46):
But after I did that assignment, like within a week, I got an actual HireVue interview, and I wasn't completely thrown off guard because of it.
Kasie Whitener (05:55):
Right. 'cause I was able to handle it. So you're hearing some of these, uh, vendor names, the Birkman, uh, assessment, the HireVue interview, the, and the, what was the, the big interview?
Kacie Ingram (06:06):
The big interview.
Kasie Whitener (06:06):
So, so these are all kind of software programs that the students have access to through this class. It's, you know, part of their, uh, learning capacity, the, um, what would you call it? The apparatus for the class is using these different software programs to help them navigate through these different processes. So in the Birkman assessment, I would assume it's just a, a number of questions they take that helps 'em to sort of figure out, these are my strengths, this is what I'm good at. These are the skills that things that I, I care about, the things I'm passionate about, that I'm interested in. Right. To try to steer. And then matching them with kind of, these are the career fields that kind of look like what you are probably going to enjoy, something that you're gonna wanna be part of. And then the HireVue, is that what you said?
Kacie Ingram (06:47):
Right.
Kasie Whitener (06:47):
HireVue is this, I, and I would assume it's HIRE?
Kacie Ingram (06:52):
Yes.
Kasie Whitener (06:52):
Yeah. HireVue. So HIRE HireVue is the a, uh, a battery of interview prep kind of tools. Right. That gives them a lot of opportunities to try interviewing in a bunch of different styles. Is that right?
Kacie Ingram (07:04):
Well, that particular tool is one that employers use. Okay. So it's a very common tool, if you will, that they will utilize as part of their applicant tracking, but also to help, I guess, um, filter through the large number of people that they have.
Kasie Whitener (07:19):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (07:19):
That are potentially qualified.
Kasie Whitener (07:21):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (07:22):
Without a person physically having to watch it.
Kasie Whitener (07:25):
I mean, I would think as people are looking for jobs out there right now, and they're, if they're just regular out there on the job market, trying to figure out what am I gonna do next? There's sort, sort of the big names or things like LinkedIn, like Indeed. Right. And then you'll get directed through a job posting to whatever employer's website is and go through whatever their internal process looks like. And a lot of people are feeling frustrated by how they're getting filtered out. Right. Or, or they're not. Maybe they're not giving the right keywords. Maybe they're not answering the questions the exact right way. But also too, for all these jobs they're applying for, they're going through these like lengthy application processes without any indication that they're going to get a callback or they're going to get an interview. And I think there's some fatigue in that job search piece. And I, I, from what I understand as OCM is helping our students, you guys are trying to minimize what that, that fatigue will look like by giving them some advantages with some of these tools and some of this practice work.
Kacie Ingram (08:20):
Well, and a huge piece of that is the class. But one of the other things, and the other, I like to say I have two jobs. One is as an instructor and the other is as a senior career coach. And so there's a team of five of us, and we work based on major. So I specifically work with marketing real estate students one-on-one.
Kasie Whitener (08:40):
To help them navigate that space.
Kacie Ingram (08:42):
Right.
Kasie Whitener (08:42):
We're gonna run a break on the other side. Kacie's gonna talk a little bit more about the advantages that we're setting up for our students, but also some usable stuff. For those of you that are on the job market right now, don't go away. It's Moore Impact. We'll be right back.
Kasie Whitener (09:05):
Welcome back to Moore Impact. Kasie Whitener here with, uh, my guest, Kacie Ingram. And we've been talking about the Office of Career Management and the role of that office, both in education by creating these classes and having students go through a process of, it's like a syllabus led structured process to generate their resume, to get their LinkedIn profiles up, to practice their interviewing skills. So that, that class, that one credit course, really being intentional about helping our students go through that process. But then also the career coaches who are supplementary and complimentary helping students working with. And you said you work specifically with marketing and real estate students to work one-on-one with them and and address specific individual needs for those students. So walk us through what that looks like, how the students engage you and, and what those kinds of engagements might look like.
Kacie Ingram (09:51):
Well, that's definitely the caveat. So one of the things I always tell students as far as the class is concerned, we talked about the sophomores, juniors, seniors. We have a variety of majors because definitely by the time they are junior and senior level, they've declared their major or majors, concentrations. And so it's more general, the feedback that we're giving
Kasie Whitener (10:11):
In the class.
Kacie Ingram (10:12):
In the classroom. So as far as the coaches are concerned, we're able to demonstrate more expertise and do a deep dive versus being generalist and work with our specific majors to help them regardless of where they are in the search. And we meet them where they are, as you mentioned, with individual needs. So if I have a student that I've identified has not taken the class, I know that I'm gonna have to start at a very foundational level. Meanwhile, if I have a student that has completed the class, maybe they took it sophomore year and now they're a junior, they're probably gonna be at a different place. So it's more around tailoring it to their specific needs. I always start with the resume no matter what. I always look at it prior to give them feedback, because there's always opportunity for growth there. I feel like we're never really done with it. Right. But outside of that, being able to identify where they are and what they need in that particular moment. And more often than not, I find with business students, they're doing all the right things. It's just a matter of tweaks or some additional things that we can add in that could potentially lead to those interviews, which ultimately lead to offers, et cetera.
Kasie Whitener (11:22):
Right. And when we were going off the air, I was telling you at, at break that, um, I know some individuals who are in the job market right now, they're trying to find, uh, employment. Whether it's because they were laid off or whether it's because they're, uh, just ready to move into their next opportunity or whatever it is. I know a lot of people that are in the job market right now, and they're frustrated by this approach that companies seem to be taking, where they have these talent management systems and the, my, my friends find a job on LinkedIn, they find it on Indeed, or whatever they go through, they apply, they feel like they're apply, apply, apply. They fill out all this application. It takes, you know, 25, 30 minutes to give everything you have to the system. And then you just never hear anything back from them. And so I was asking you like, is there a way they can identify that before they go through the process where they can have visibility to like, okay, this is a job that's associated with a talent management system, it's gonna take me a lot longer to get through it. Or, um, or I don't even wanna mess with those 'cause I never have any good luck with those. Like would you offer some strategies there as far as, or how do they even know that the talent management system is in place?
Kacie Ingram (12:21):
Well, I think when it comes to the applicant tracking systems, um, a variety of companies use them, you can almost guarantee that if they're medium to larger companies, they are going to need to have them because they're gonna have a larger hiring need. And for one or two plus individuals to review those manually, it's really difficult.
Kasie Whitener (12:40):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (12:40):
There are some exceptions. We were talking about Blue Cross, Blue Cross Blue Shield as being one that I was actually surprised to hear that they don't use an applicant tracking system and their HR team actually goes through those individually. There's a variety,
Kasie Whitener (12:53):
Which might mean why it takes so long.
Kacie Ingram (12:55):
Oh, 100%.
Kasie Whitener (12:56):
It may, yeah. It may be that that's the reason you haven't heard from Blue Cross Blue Shield is because they are reviewing every single application individually. And so they're all, they're looking for the people who are gonna be the right fit. But it could be two months, three months, four months before you ever even get a notification that's like, oh yeah, by the way, we looked at your application and, and we'd like to schedule you for an interview. That can be very frustrating for applicants as well.
Kacie Ingram (13:15):
One of the things that, um, I recommend that you look for is, does it have a closing period for that application? So a lot of times, especially with our students on Handshake, it tends to be a little further out than like it would be for LinkedIn or things like that, where you typically would find those. But it might be because the person is hiring and specifically looking for college students in this case, but they know that they're not gonna be available until May,
Kasie Whitener (13:43):
May. When they graduate.
Kacie Ingram (13:44):
Or even for an internship, typically, unless it's local. And so the hiring timeline is usually longer. So then they can say, okay, well if they're not gonna close this application until December 31st as an example, then there's probably a lot of people that are gonna be applying. I don't know. Is that recruiter or hiring manager reviewing those on a rolling basis as they come in? Or are they waiting to review them all at one time? And you may not know until it's all said and done. So you could expect to possibly hear early on if they are interviewing as they're reviewing, or maybe not until probably if we're being realistic third week in January.
Kasie Whitener (14:25):
Well, and the other thing we've heard is that people will take the, the reviewers, right? So inside the company, and this is not any specific company at all, but inside the company, when they are gonna go and review, they're grabbing those resumes or those applications and dropping those into AI and saying, does this match our job description?
Kacie Ingram (14:42):
I have a lot of thoughts about that. I think personally, if someone has the time to do that, then they're really missing the point. Right? I mean, to me, when it comes to AI, I tell my students, now, if you're not using it in general, you're two plus years behind all everybody else.
Kasie Whitener (15:00):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (15:00):
Like all your competition. And it's already super competitive when it comes to the career search. If you're not using it, I've just, I don't understand because it helps make things much more efficient.
Kasie Whitener (15:12):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (15:13):
And you're gonna get that return on investment as you utilize that to further improve your application. Which again leads to hopefully those callbacks for the interviews.
Kasie Whitener (15:23):
Let's talk specifically about how, like, which AI should they be using for their career search, and then how do they use that AI to improve their chances of being the one selected once they do apply?
Kacie Ingram (15:35):
So there are so many resources. Um, a couple ones that we typically mention are the most common ones, right? Like ChatGPT. Co-pilot, because a lot of people use Microsoft. And my personal favorite, um, Google's Gemini.
Kasie Whitener (15:51):
Gemini.
Kacie Ingram (15:51):
Right. Um, but I will say just as an aside for, uh, USC students that our students, our faculty and our staff actually have access to a paid version of Chat GPT.
Kasie Whitener (16:04):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (16:04):
So from a student's perspective, I would absolutely start there.
Kasie Whitener (16:08):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (16:08):
'cause it's gonna be more advanced than any free version that you would use.
Kasie Whitener (16:11):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (16:12):
Regardless of the platform. Outside of that though, from an AI perspective, when it comes to career search, you can use it on a variety of levels. At the baseline level though, I would be putting in a prompt. And again, I would probably, um, if I was using it for personal uses. Use Gemini for the career piece of it. But let's say if I use chat GPT, because I have that advanced version, then I'm able to take that job description top to bottom and plug it in, if you will copy and paste it right into the platform. And you can use a variety of prompts. Personally, I use the more simple prompts and build on them because I like to see it kind of, um, grow and flourish. And that's how I digest information. But you could build a very elaborate prompt and get it all in one response, if you will.
Kasie Whitener (17:03):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (17:03):
So essentially what that means is, if I took that job description, and my prompt, if you will, was to not only pull the top skills. 'cause most AI are gonna do that regardless. But what a lot of people don't realize is many tracking systems do not understand the difference in tenses of, you know, the particular skills they're looking for. So a lot of times, I'll say if, let's say they're look looking for someone who can communicate effectively well, if you have communication or communicates effectively, AI's gonna say, or that tracking system's gonna say that you don't have that skill.
Kasie Whitener (17:38):
Because the way the word is written communicates communication does not match communicate.
Kacie Ingram (17:46):
Correct.
Kasie Whitener (17:47):
Wow.
Kacie Ingram (17:47):
Uh, it has to be verbatim. And that's the caveat that I would put if I was putting my prompt in. Give me the top, you know, 10 skills verbatim. From the job description so that then I can take my resume and always mention with the resume, because it's OpenAI, do not include your personal contact information.
Kasie Whitener (18:08):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (18:08):
But you would start, so for students, we list their education at the top because that's the most relevant thing for them now.
Kasie Whitener (18:13):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (18:14):
So education all the way to the bottom, you can copy your, put your resume in there and say, in general, help me incorporate these key skills into my resume.
Kasie Whitener (18:22):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (18:23):
I also recommend that you can do it that way so that you can continue to build on it in that particular chat, if you will.
Kasie Whitener (18:30):
Sure.
Kacie Ingram (18:31):
But within that, I find that your results are better if you do it position by position.
Kasie Whitener (18:38):
Okay.
Kacie Ingram (18:38):
Versus the entire resume. Okay. But that's just the beginning, like including those keywords into the resume. Right. 'cause we, everybody thinks you have to redo your entire resume. You don't, if you incorporate those keywords, then you're able to better align with what that job description says. So if there is an applicant tracking system, then it's not gonna completely block you if you don't have those skills necessarily, which a lot of people think that it will, right? It's not the end all be all. However, if you think about a ranking system, if I match 10 outta 10 skills, I'm gonna rank higher than someone that matches nine out 10.
Kasie Whitener (19:12):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (19:12):
Eight outta 10, so on and so forth.
Kasie Whitener (19:14):
Right. Which, you know, on the, on the side of the team that's trying to have to review all of these, of course, I would want the best fit. Right? Uh, but the flip side of that is, I, I was the best fit, but the only way, you know, I'm the best fit is because I used AI to update the language I was using to describe that I'm the best fit. And so really is the individual who's presenting themself in that way, are they really the best fit? Or did they just match their resume to the job description better than anybody else did? There's this like kind of, uh, uh, and this is what, this is what I mean by the fatigue, right? Because if you are somebody who goes and you're searching for jobs and you found eight or 10 jobs today that you think are really good fits, and you are then now working through your resume and trying to create this, this match in your resume, and then, okay, this is the right one for this job. This is the right one for job two, this is the right one for job three, and now I'm gonna upload all, you know, I'm gonna go and apply for all these jobs. This is a labor intensive process to try to match only so that you can be in those top rankings for this applicant management system. And I think that's where people just get so frustrated because they're like, well, I'm out there, I'm doing it. I'm working as hard as I can. I'm still not getting calls, I'm still not getting interviews because somebody else maybe matched it, you know, with not having the s on communicates where I had the s on communicates. You know what I mean?
Kacie Ingram (20:31):
Right.
Kasie Whitener (20:32):
And that can feel very disheartening or very discouraging.
Kacie Ingram (20:35):
So I tend to have the approach instead of a mass application. So you can go on LinkedIn and do easy apply, and you can even through Handshake, if it's an internal application, you essentially upload your resume and don't have to complete that long application process. There's advantages in the sense that it takes less time on that end, but a lot more people tend to do those because it takes less time.
Kasie Whitener (20:59):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (20:59):
So then now is a much larger pool of applicants and oftentimes most of them are not qualified, whether they've taken the time to make those edits or not, but they're not qualified. So then now they're spending as a hiring manager spending more time going through all those applications to weed out those particular ones. So it's definitely a catch 22 when it comes to the AI piece, however we'll
Kasie Whitener (21:24):
Yeah. Yeah. Uh, when we get to the other side, we talk a little bit about the, the however side, because I think it seems to me like there, there are some strategies here. We just wanna make sure we're delivering the right ones. It's Moore Impact. We'll be right back. Don't go away.
Kasie Whitener (21:51):
All right. Welcome back to Moore Impact. Kasie Whitener here with Kacie Ingram from the Office of Career Management. And we've been talking about strategies for AI, how AI is being used in the hiring process, specifically with these applicant tracking software that, uh, a lot of big companies use applicant tracking software to try to limit the pool of applicants that their humans will have to go through only to be finding the, the most appropriate or the the best fits for these jobs that are open. The challenge for our applicants is that they, the nuances of that software can be to the letter exclusive. Meaning that if you are, if it's looking for the word communicate and you have communicates, it could, it could be that you get dropped down just one level 'cause you didn't exactly match. So people are frustrated by this. There's some fatigue around it, especially the ones who've been on the job market for a while. And they do say, if you are on the job market, it could take one month per $10,000. So if you're trying to make $80,000, it could take you eight months to, to actually find the job that's the right fit. So I know it sounds awful to try to tell people to, to counsel people with, just try to be patient with the process. But there's, there are a lot of jobs available. There are a lot of companies hiring. They're just being very specific and strategic about how they do their interview process, how they bring the applicants in, and how they actually get them through, uh, to, to making a job offer. So as we were talking, as we were going to break, we're talking about the, uh, the AI sort of what's the right strategy for how our students, recent grads and or really anybody out there on the job market, what's the right strategy for the way they package their, uh, resume and try to try to win that software battle and get to the top of the list.
Kacie Ingram (23:38):
So one of the strategies that I tend to teach, if you will, whether it's coaching or in class, is more around being very strategic and not necessarily looking to just mass apply. So I, I focus on quality versus quantity, and based on things that I was already mentioning, there's no way that in most cases people can apply to 10 jobs a day. I mean, and honestly, if there is a magic number, I've not seen it. Right? I always tell my students, you know, zero obviously is not gonna work.
Kasie Whitener (24:14):
Yeah. That's not gonna work.
Kacie Ingram (24:14):
So, um, you have to identify for yourself what you feel comfortable with. And I tend to start out with more reasonable goals in the sense that I pull from personal experience as well as, um, from working with students as long as I have. But if I set a goal of five a week as just as an example, and I only apply to three or four, I'm already gonna start out feeling like I've failed. So I prefer to kind of, what do we say, um, underpromise and overdeliver for myself.
New Speaker (24:47):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (24:48):
Uh, however that looks right. Everybody works a little differently. But if I apply, say my goal is three and I apply to five, well, now I feel like I've started out on a positive foot, if you will. So being able to take that, um, I guess positive energy being very specific and strategic about the types of roles that you're looking for. So maybe I narrow it down a little bit more and use key skills in the actual search, uh, versus like traditional job titles, because they vary so much from company to company.
Kacie Ingram (25:18):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (25:19):
Especially when you're looking for full-time roles, like, you know, marketing, internship, you'll see that pretty often. Right. But, you know, it could be marketing coordinator, administrator and specialist, and a manager.
New Speaker (25:29):
Specialist. That's my favorite.
Kasie Whitener (25:32):
But within those, you know, a marketing manager right out of college, well, maybe you're the only person in the department and you're not actually managing anyone.
New Speaker (25:40):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (25:40):
Right. So then you're a generalist and do all this.
Kasie Whitener (25:42):
Well, you're managing the marketing itself.
Kacie Ingram (25:44):
Correct. Yes.
New Speaker (25:45):
That was my job at, uh, Austin International. When I was in graduate school, I was the marketing, uh, director, which is so silly. 'cause there were like five of us in the company that were in those executive roles, you know what I mean? But like, I had no business being a director. And when I went to other bigger companies where there were like legit directors that had 35 direct reports, I was like, yeah, that's not me. I was, it was just me. I was a one woman show. Uh, but I was directing the marketing efforts. Like I was in charge of all that. And it was well before social media, so it was a whole lot easier. Anyway, all that to say, when we think of these, these young people finding the right role for themselves, how much give, give me, can you give me like a ratio of like, time spent searching, time spent preparing, time spent actually applying, like is it a 30, 30, 30 where like I'll spend 30% of my time looking for the right job. I'll spend 30% matching my skills to the job skills, and then I'll spend 30% of my time actually uploading those applications and submitting them. And if I've done, you know, 10 a week, then I feel like, you know, maybe from a numbers game perspective, after the end of the month I've done 40 jobs, I should be a little bit closer to where I'm trying to go. Does that seem about right? Or like a rational strategy?
Kacie Ingram (26:54):
I think it does vary depending on the individual. But I will say from what I've worked with students, essentially it's gonna be a large majority of the time is gonna be looking for the right roles. If you're doing the strategic approach. Like I mentioned, otherwise it's gonna flip. But in this case, if we're looking for the right roles, we're putting in more keywords to narrow it down. 'cause you can always expand. But if personally, if I have more than 50 results once I've searched, I'm not gonna look through all of those in the span of one sitting.
New Speaker (27:25):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (27:26):
Like a day. So I personally like somewhere between 30 and 50, and then I can narrow it down and get my list. But if you're searching and you get hundreds and thousands of results because you're being a little more generic, if you will mm-hmm
New Speaker (27:51):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (27:51):
Whether it's through your professional documents or interviewing, but how are you gonna possibly search through all those results? And you're gonna get so much junk you have to go through.
Kasie Whitener (27:59):
Like, I'll, I'll do anything. I mean, that's the mm-hmm
Kacie Ingram (28:48):
Well, kind of tying in with that, um, when the book I like to refer back to, I think it's Daniel Pink to, uh, Sell As Human.
Kasie Whitener (28:55):
I love that book.
Kacie Ingram (28:56):
So with that, essentially that's what those tools are doing. You're selling yourself through that, through your social media, through your application process, through the interview process to the company. Now, yes, the company is also trying to sell their value to you. But I think that's where a lot of the challenge comes in right now is because companies can be more selective. Because more and more people are looking, if you will,
Kasie Whitener (29:21):
Yeah. Yeah.
Kacie Ingram (29:25):
Correct.
Kasie Whitener (29:25):
Yeah. There, and there's a ton of people on the market. Like, there, there are a ton of people. I know people who are happily, happily employed, but they're still on the job market with the idea that there's the next, the next adventure is out there.
Kacie Ingram (29:37):
Absolutely. Always looking for something better, right? Not to side sidebar too much, but I tell my students all the time, you know, you're not going to find happiness in one place, thing, person.
New Speaker (29:49):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (29:49):
Like, all the happiness is not gonna be, all your needs are not gonna be met in that one place.
New Speaker (29:52):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (29:53):
So whether it's a job or whatever.
New Speaker (29:54):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (29:55):
So you have to find as many of those check boxes as you can.
New Speaker (29:58):
Yeah.
Kacie Ingram (29:58):
And then get those other needs met somewhere else. Right.
Kasie Whitener (30:01):
And prioritize parts of the job that matter to you. Right. So like, if it is a, if working in the office is what matters to you, if staying in Columbia is what matters to you, if having, uh, growth potential, right? Being able to move up through the ranks. Like we were just talking about, uh, a role in one company that the company is itself is growing. So, okay, if you got a job in that company, then as the company itself grows, you'll have opportunity for career pathing, right? If you go and work for a company that is the same size, they've always been, you know, they've been, you know, 35 employees for the last 18 years, it's unlikely they're growing your own career. May stall out there. It may not be a long-term engagement for you. So do you wanna go and work for that company? So knowing as much as you possibly can about the company, I think is really valuable too.
Kacie Ingram (30:46):
Absolutely.
New Speaker (30:46):
It's worth it to do that front end research.
Kacie Ingram (30:48):
Yeah. The research and then honestly research for yourself and truly gaining self-awareness. Um, I don't know, self-proclaimed, um, assessment junkie, which can be challenging. So we talked about the Birkman, but there's so many different, in this case, the Birkman is more than a personality assessment, but there are plenty of personality assessments out there. And our students actually have access to either free or significantly reduced cost assessments like the NBTI.
New Speaker (31:14):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (31:15):
And they can dig a little deeper into their interests.
Kasie Whitener (31:19):
NBTI is Myers-Briggs, yeah. Uh, and people will be familiar with that, with that phrase, Myers-Briggs. 'cause it's been around for a long time. I'm pretty sure my dad gave me Myers-Briggs when I was in high school. In the nineties. In the 19 hundreds. Yeah.
Kacie Ingram (31:31):
Well,
Kasie Whitener (31:35):
But yeah, I mean these, these, the personality assessments, what they can help you do is, uh, get you to be honest with yourself, we did true colors. When you and I were working together, uh, with Clemson Road Creative, we did some true colors assessments with the idea of like, Hey, let's be aware of who we are and what we want and whether or not this is gonna match what the company is trying to do. And it may not. 'cause even if you did put on the best show and they picked you and, and you're in this environment and then, you know, within three months or so, you're like, this is not the right fit. And I should have known it was not gonna be the right fit. But I was just so desperate to get this job that I, any job, right. That I was ignoring the, the signs that this was not the right job for me.
Kacie Ingram (32:13):
Well, I think a a lot of things play into that. And so if you're in a situation where finances are a challenge, then you do what you have to do, right? And if you are able to secure something and have more secure financial means, it makes sense. But just knowing that you're probably gonna be continuing to search.
New Speaker (32:31):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (32:31):
Which in and of itself can be overwhelming. Yeah. Right. Knowing I finally secured something, but now I'm still continuing, um, that search. But outside of that, when it comes to being able to be strategic and narrow down those results, the whole idea and the reason that I tell students professionals to do this is because you can then take that time and spend it customizing your resume with those key skills. Writing a cover letter if it's required. And if you have, and this is where a lot of people say, well, it's not required, so I'm not gonna write one. Well, you and every other person that applies because they're rushing through the process.
New Speaker (33:08):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (33:09):
Do they read 'em? I don't know. I've talked to many, many recruiters and it can be just as variable as any other thing. Right?
New Speaker (33:16):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (33:17):
So I would assume that they're going to read it, write it well yeah. Write it like you just absolutely are in love with their company and you have all the best skills. Be genuine.
New Speaker (33:27):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (33:27):
But nonetheless, you wanna appeal to that and focus on what value you can bring them. Not what they're gonna do or that job's gonna do for you, right. Is a big piece with the cover letters. But being able to do that extra step that other people probably aren't gonna do because it's not required. So then now you're further communicating your value, right. If they choose to read it.
Kasie Whitener (33:47):
And, and you're getting into that smaller pool of applicants too.
Kacie Ingram (33:50):
Right.
New Speaker (33:50):
Which increases your likelihood of being the bigger fish. All right. We're gonna do, we've got one more segment to go. Uh, we're gonna run a break on the other side of the break more with Kacie Ingram from the Office of Career Management. It's Moore Impact Don't go away.
Kasie Whitener (34:15):
Welcome back to Moore Impact Kasie Whitener here in the studio at 100.7 The Point and on Makethepoint radio.com. Welcome into our live radio listeners and also to our listeners on our podcast once we get, uh, this formatted and put out there. I wanna thank, uh, Julia Moulton for being our podcast producer, executive producer Julia. She's great. She does a great job of getting that transcript up and getting the podcast ready for folks to listen to it in perpetuity. So Kasie Ingram from the Office of Career Management joining me today to talk about strategies for getting hired. Strategies for being noticed on the application process side. We talked a little bit about LinkedIn. We talked a little bit about AI from a, um, prep perspective. Like how do you use AI to prepare your resume, prepare your application to be accepted. And then you mentioned the cover letters in the last segment. And AI can help you build these cover letters that are going to directly address the specific job and match what you've got to what the job wants and create a very polished, compelling argument to get you forward. But these are not the only tools in your arsenal we really think about what's the best way for our students or really for any, our alumni, anybody on the job market today to, to find the right fit, the right match, and position themselves to be the selected candidate. Um, what, what are some of these other tools you would suggest?
Kacie Ingram (35:34):
So most often people will come to me and say that they've done everything up until the point that we've discussed. Right? So I got all my documents ready and I applied and then I'll say, well then what? What'd you do after that? Well, what do you mean?
New Speaker (35:48):
Yeah.
Kacie Ingram (35:49):
Okay. Radio silence, right?
New Speaker (35:50):
Yeah.
Kacie Ingram (35:51):
So from there I say, okay, this is the whole purpose of having that quality versus quantity piece because you can take the time to hopefully identify who a strategic person is in that department. Maybe a hiring manager. Maybe you can utilize your network to find someone to help you get your resume in front of the right person.
New Speaker (36:11):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (36:11):
So it could look like a variety of things. And most people say, well I can't find that information. You can't find it or you haven't tried to find it.
New Speaker (36:21):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (36:22):
Because I actually take a lot of, um, I really thoroughly enjoy doing a deep dive and trying to find things. It's like a challenge for me. So I always feel, you know, vindicated whenever I'm able to locate it. But it could be a variety of things from LinkedIn. Most often those job posts are going to have the person I have seen more frequently where they don't. But it's usually associated.
New Speaker (36:45):
'cause they don't wanna be contacted directly.
Kacie Ingram (36:46):
Inundated. Correct.
New Speaker (36:47):
Yeah.
Kacie Ingram (36:48):
And I will say this, and I don't wanna go off on a tangent on LinkedIn. I love LinkedIn. I have been steering students a little bit away from it in order to contact people. Because if you have a free account, and I don't care what kind of discount you have, it's expensive even for students per month.
New Speaker (37:04):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (37:04):
So utilize that 30 days. They give you trial, make sure you're using it daily and taking advantage of those InMails they give you.
New Speaker (37:12):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (37:12):
But if you have a free account, you get five messages, customized messages with connection requests you can send in an entire month.
Kasie Whitener (37:20):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (37:21):
Five, we could easily use those up in one day. Yeah. If we're just using them for the jobs we're wanting to apply to you. On top of that, in that message you only have 200 characters. So they are significantly reducing what you can do with like a free account. So what I recommend is if you're able to identify the person, follow them on LinkedIn. Right. So then as they post, you can interact and engage and then outside of that find their email address. So if I've identified the person, there are so many tools just like AI and everything else that you can use to find email addresses. And a lot of people are surprised by that. And so one of the ones that I like is Hunter H-U-N-T-E- R .io.
Kasie Whitener (38:07):
Okay.
Kacie Ingram (38:08):
And you can find, you can do it a couple different ways, but you can, if you have the name, you can put the name in and then@whatevercompany.com and it will tell you if there's a potential match. And it'll also give you the percentage likelihood that it is accurate.
Kasie Whitener (38:23):
Nice.
Kacie Ingram (38:24):
So let's say if I have one that shows up at like 96% likelihood it's accurate, it probably is. If I have one that shows up at like 80%, I'm probably gonna double check that and see if I can find another source. So our students have access to another resource that um, is career shift great for job and internship search. And I like to tell students if you're looking to cast a wider net with more keywords, right?
Kasie Whitener (38:49):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (38:50):
It will pull that because it pulls from every public resource. But I really like the contact feature on there because you can find the email structure for any company for the most part. And be able to figure out reasonable deduction. Yeah. What that email address is.
Kasie Whitener (39:08):
And by that email structure you mean things like at the Moore School for example, my email is my first name, do my last name@mooresc.edu. And because of that, like if I just knew that Bill Hawk was at the Moore school, I could say okay, well I know it could possibly be Bill.Hawk@moore.sc.edu. Right. Or be thinking, okay, well maybe it's his full name, maybe it's his his given name. So it might be William. Right. And and in which, and not to like put Bill Hawk's email on the
Kacie Ingram (39:39):
Kasie Whitener (39:39):
On the podcast, but I'm just using his as name. I'm sure he'd be glad to get an email from you. Um, but just to say that like when you know the email structure and you know the person's name, you can start to kind of deductive reasoning figure out this may or may not be their email address.
Kacie Ingram (39:54):
Right. And one of the things I say is, let's say if you find two or three potential options, because people at the Moore school that have been there longer, the structure looks different, right? So use the blind copy, they'll never be the wiser.
Kasie Whitener (40:06):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (40:07):
Hopefully you get a response and you know, otherwise just keep track of that. 'cause you should be tracking your documents. That's the other thing that when you do that mass apply, most students or people do not know what companies, what jobs.
Kasie Whitener (40:20):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (40:21):
And then when they do get contacted, they're clueless.
Kasie Whitener (40:23):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (40:25):
And then they can't speak to what it was and they sound like they don't know what's happening.
Kasie Whitener (40:29):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (40:29):
So not only did you have a, I guess, non-strategic approach to it, right? Like you cast a wide net,
Kasie Whitener (40:36):
But then when you got the fish hook, you couldn't take advantage of it.
Kacie Ingram (40:40):
Right. Because you couldn't speak to anything.
Kasie Whitener (40:42):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (40:42):
Related to that particular role and you sounded like you got caught off guard.
Kasie Whitener (40:45):
Yeah.
Kacie Ingram (40:46):
So most of the time that can be determined through your application materials, through conversations that they're having them.
Kasie Whitener (40:53):
Sure.
Kacie Ingram (40:53):
So having a name, right? In theory. Is gonna be your best approach. Now how you find it is gonna vary. So for students, handshake is a great resource and many of them don't take the time to scroll past the job description. Almost every role on there has one or more direct names. And you could message them directly through there, but I like bypass it. Find their email address, send them an email. Right. So that follow up piece, that's what most people miss. And if you're applying to hundreds of jobs, there's no way that you can customize your documents. And then apply regardless if it's easy apply or otherwise.
Kasie Whitener (41:34):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (41:34):
And follow up on the application. And it's simple as far as, you know, once you identify the person and find an email address. But the simple piece is the message itself doesn't have to be robust.
Kasie Whitener (41:46):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (41:46):
Just expressing this is the role, this is a little bit about who I am, this is why I'm interested, I'd love and ask for the interview. I'd love the opportunity to interview.
Kasie Whitener (41:54):
Right. Yeah. And, and can, can you help? Right. Like that just can, can you, who should I speak to? And if it's not you, can you forward me to the right person? Like these kinds of things.
Kacie Ingram (42:03):
Right.
Kasie Whitener (42:03):
And I, I think it's great 'cause we got, at the very beginning of this conversation, you were talking about Daniel Pink's to sell as human and this is what job applications are. It's you selling yourself to this company that I'm the right fit for this opening that you have. And part of that sales process is the follow up is talking to the decision maker is making sure that you're differentiating yourself from your competitors. And that's everybody else who applied. So if a, an applicant is out there with this mass apply and they're not doing any of these follow ups, they're not using their network to try to differentiate themselves, they're not find, finding the email address and reach out to somebody who could be the decision maker. If they're not being intentional with these behaviors, they're not even really demonstrating that they really want this job. Um, and I think that that's all of this like sales process stuff is a way that you demonstrate, I really want this job. This is a good fit for me and I think I'm gonna be a really great contributor for you. And these are all the things I've done to demonstrate that.
Kacie Ingram (42:58):
Right. And so two things that I would uh, include with that. One is don't stop at one email. You have to walk that line between too much and you know, just I guess annoying someone. Right? Like, we don't wanna be obnoxious.
Kasie Whitener (43:13):
Until they finally reply
Kacie Ingram (43:15):
But you determine how many times you follow up and I usually recommend, you know, five to seven business days. I have a little more strategy that I usually put into that, but as far as the other point goes with the return on investment, so I can mass apply. And I can get calls back, I can do interviews and I can hopefully wind up with offers for choice. Right. Like I like to the multiple offers. Ideally, so I can choose between the ones, right. Or I can strategically apply, have interviews, hopefully have offers. The difference is, and this is, you know, an example, right? I can have offers that I actually am interested in at companies that have the same values and culture and whatever else. Is important to me or I can choose between all the ones I don't really want and don't know anything about the company don't feel like they align and ultimately the result's the same.
Kasie Whitener (44:11):
Right.
Kacie Ingram (44:11):
Right. Except for the quality of the actual end result.
Kasie Whitener (44:16):
Yeah.
Kacie Ingram (44:17):
Yes. As far as that goes. Like the job.
Kasie Whitener (44:18):
Yeah. Well you've sold me on the strategic approach
Kacie Ingram (44:39):
Individuals. As in students?
Kasie Whitener (44:40):
Well, yeah, of course our students can come to the Office of Career Management. They can set up appointments with career coaches, but our audience in general, our alumni and other listeners here in Columbia. Are there any go-to resources you would suggest?
Kacie Ingram (44:52):
Well, LinkedIn that we talked about a few times. And I usually will mention like different things. So we talked about research. If I'm gonna do research on a company, Glassdoor is great for reviews.
Kasie Whitener (45:02):
Okay.
Kacie Ingram (45:03):
AI though, if I am trying to identify typical keywords, typical job titles, and even possibly resources. Use AI to pull it. I don't even Google things anymore. Why?
Kasie Whitener (45:15):
Just use Gemini.
Kacie Ingram (45:16):
Absolutely. 'cause it can do that additional search for you. Within the results that it would pull otherwise.
Kasie Whitener (45:21):
Much more sophisticated. Hopefully you will come back in December when we're starting to send our students that are graduating out into the workforce. Thank you so much for being here. Kacie Ingram, Office of Career Management, a resource for our students, a resource, and especially to consider if you are a potential student that's listening to the podcast and curious about what would the Moore School do for you to help you get a job. That's a tremendous resource. This has been Moore Impact. When you learn more, you know more. And when you know more, you do more. Thanks for listening.